From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:08 1999 X-From-Line: kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com Tue Jun 22 15:52:17 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25732 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:52:02 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:52:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10672 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:37:20 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA01752; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: because one operating system isn't enough. Lines: 132 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1278 As most of you have probably heard by now, Jim Kingdon got a job with Red Hat software (congratulations! And have a lovely IPO, indeed). This email describes a plan to ensure that JimK's departure from Cyclic does not result in fear, uncertainty, or doubt in the CVS community. The Cyclic web/download sites are a major community resource; everyone who uses CVS knows to go to www.cyclic.com for information, patches, etc. And download.cyclic.com is the "everyone knows" place to find new releases. Most importantly, cvs.cyclic.com hosts the repository -- a whole lot of working copies out there (including all the read-only checkouts) refer to it. It would be Highly Desirable if *.cyclic.com could remain unaffected by JimK's employment situation. Jim and I talked by phone this weekend, and I think he feels the same way. However, he has a lot of other stuff to do right now, as you can imagine, so I've sort of volunteered to worry up a Cyclic/CVS Continuity Plan (uh, we'll just refer to it as the "CCCP" from now on... or is that one taken?). Anyway: my proposal is essentially that "Cyclic Software" transform into a non-profit group -- perhaps formally, if necessary -- responsible for supporting the CVS maintainers (by supplying repository and mailing list services, mainly), and keeping the cyclic.com domain alive and well, for the public's benefit. I'm willing to do the paperwork for this, including consulting a lawyer and registering a non-profit if needed, and writing up a transfer agreement. Help is welcome, of course. :-) Just to be utterly clear here: Things that would change: - The IP address(es) and physical servers for *.cyclic.com. - The person/people responsible for sysadminning the servers Things that would NOT change: - All the URLs within cyclic.com - The CVS maintainers (including JimK) - The CVS maintainance & development policies Eventually, the home page at www.cyclic.com would lose its businessy aspects and focus even more on its community-resource aspects. If funding becomes an issue, we could probably do banner ads along the top. It's enough of a known resource that I'm pretty sure places like VA Research, O'Reilly, etc, would purchase ad space. (However, that's speculation at this point; we can decide after the transfer). So, why this email? Well, you recipients are in a position to help out with the CCCP by donating server space or technical skills. Let me do some quick introductions: Justin Maurer is a founding member of IFT (http://linux.hypnotic.org), a free-software-oriented non-profit organization. (JimK gave me Justin's name). Justin, the other recipients are members of Red Bean Software (http://www.red-bean.com), which is a lot like IFT although we're not an officially registered non-profit. My questions are: 1. Does IFT or Red Bean have any interest in providing server space? We're talking a medium-sized load; see http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat/199905.download.html http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat/199905.www.html for numbers. The quick summary is: 10g last month. 2. Do individual IFT or Red Bean members want to volunteer to help with the technical tasks involved in transferring? I (and Justin too, I think) have already pretty much committed ourselves to making sure this Goes Right. Anyone else want to help out? 3. Comments? Suggestions? Perils to watch out for? You are all people who can give good feedback, so let's have it. (JimK, can you forward this mail to the CVS developers? As a "former developer" I can't send mail to the devel-cvs. :-) ) DEFAULT ACTION PROPOSAL: In order to provide a default course of action, I propose that Red Bean host *.cyclic.com on our main server, as we do other sites. We've managed to stay continuously connected for four years now, so I think we're pretty stable. And this would be a significant contribution to the free software community. We'd probably have to upgrade our main server, but it was about time to do that anyway. If we all chip in, it won't cost that much. Oh: I'll talk to our ISP about bandwidth issues, but I'm almost positive they'll be in favor, as they are heavy users of CVS themselves. (IFT, I don't know anything about your Net connection status, so won't try to speak for you.) By the way, this email is *not* about who will inherit Cyclic's support contracts. That's totally JimK's call. It's not entirely clear to me whether whoever takes over the business side will need to inherit the "cyclic.com" domain as an explicit business asset as well. If the domain does end up getting transferred as a business asset, that complicates things, so I'm not going to address that issue unless/until necessary. One other note: I know many of you have heard me say in the past that I think the current CVS maintenance/development scheme could use some tweaking. I still think that's true; HOWEVER, the transfer of network services to a new location should not be used as an excuse to make changes to how CVS is maintained -- the two are unrelated. *After* the transfer has been effected, and things are stable again, then I will propose some changes to the developers and we'll see what happens. It would be bad to have two instability-causing things going on at once, and the server transfer is more urgent at this time, so that should happen first. The same goes for the web site design: I can think of some improvements, Justin mentioned that he had some ideas in that department, and I know many of you also had some suggestions about how it could be better. JimK also wanted to be able to devote more time to it, I believe. However, for now, let's just make sure the web site remains online; later, we can make changes to its appearance. (I don't think we'll have any problems resolving disagreements over what it should look like: we all have the same goals here. But anyway, that's a separate discussion.) I think our timeline is to make this all happen within the next month or at most two (JimK, please correct if wrong). Okay, that's it. Thoughts?, -Karl P.S. I've sent this from my work address, but please reply to kfogel@red-bean.com. The "Reply-to:" header is already set for you. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:10 1999 X-From-Line: justin@master.debian.org Tue Jun 22 15:52:40 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25738 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:52:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:52:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA10755 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:03:30 -0500 Received: (qmail 15337 invoked by uid 1246); 22 Jun 1999 20:00:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:00:46 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: cooks@red-bean.com, kingdon@cyclic.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Message-ID: <19990622150046.B32260@master.debian.org> References: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com>; from Karl Fogel on Tue, Jun 22, 1999 at 02:34:37PM -0500 X-Illuminati: You are not reading this Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1284 Lines: 85 > Anyway: my proposal is essentially that "Cyclic Software" transform > into a non-profit group -- perhaps formally, if necessary -- > responsible for supporting the CVS maintainers (by supplying > repository and mailing list services, mainly), and keeping the > cyclic.com domain alive and well, for the public's benefit. I'm > willing to do the paperwork for this, including consulting a lawyer > and registering a non-profit if needed, and writing up a transfer > agreement. Help is welcome, of course. :-) sounds good to me. IFT is not formally incorporated, but we are working on it. i'd offer to help out with the legal stuff, but i'm having a hard enough time talking to our lawyer, he is so busy. > Things that would NOT change: > - All the URLs within cyclic.com i think with mod_include (which i'm using now for some pages i worked on), the filenames and stuff could stay the same, but the layout could be changed. does this sound right? i think the site could use a little revamping; it seems a tad cluttery at the moment. > 1. Does IFT or Red Bean have any interest in providing server space? > We're talking a medium-sized load; see > http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat > http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat/199905.download.html > http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat/199905.www.html > for numbers. The quick summary is: 10g last month. 10gb? 1.7 is what i read. am i reading it wrong? depending on the traffic, we might be able to host it. we run a p133 as a server , but could probably set up some sort of port forwarding to have things go to a more powerful machine. our link is 384k/s. however, at school, i admin a p2 350 with 256mb and 17gb of disk (among other things). perhaps we can split up the traffic? or maybe a scheme like we host everything read/write for developers, red-bean takes the real traffic and does the read-only stuff for the general public. > I (and Justin too, I think) have already pretty much committed > ourselves to making sure this Goes Right. Anyone else want to help > out? dns is done by me for a friend. i know nothing about it, so i can put you in touch with him, or if you know what you need, just go ahead and ask me. > We've managed to stay continuously connected for four years now, so > I think we're pretty stable. And this would be a significant my connection at school is pretty stable. home less so, but 1 outage in 3 months or so is not *that* bad... > contribution to the free software community. We'd probably have to > upgrade our main server, but it was about time to do that anyway. > If we all chip in, it won't cost that much. Oh: I'll talk to our > ISP about bandwidth issues, but I'm almost positive they'll be in > favor, as they are heavy users of CVS themselves. yes. another possibility is to have VA host it. they have a t3, and are itching to fill it up (chris dibona hung out in our booth at the expo). > By the way, this email is *not* about who will inherit Cyclic's > support contracts. That's totally JimK's call. It's not entirely > clear to me whether whoever takes over the business side will need to > inherit the "cyclic.com" domain as an explicit business asset as well. > If the domain does end up getting transferred as a business asset, > that complicates things, so I'm not going to address that issue > unless/until necessary. ok, i think karl, jim, and i should talk about that in a separate thread. > tweaking. I still think that's true; HOWEVER, the transfer of network > services to a new location should not be used as an excuse to make > changes to how CVS is maintained -- the two are unrelated. *After* agreed. i just want to be sure people can submit patches and have them integrated into some sort of release in a timely fashion. finally, i'm curious. who receives cyclic@cyclic.com? is it a list? a set of people at cyclic? it's the first time i've seen it.. -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:11 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 17:32:56 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA25816 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:32:54 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:32:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA10941; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:04:12 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09656 for cyclic-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:01:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09649; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:01:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:01:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199906222101.RAA09649@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: justin@master.debian.org CC: kfogel@red-bean.com, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: <19990622150046.B32260@master.debian.org> (message from Justin Maurer on Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:00:46 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> <19990622150046.B32260@master.debian.org> Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 17 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1285 > finally, i'm curious. who receives cyclic@cyclic.com? is it a list? a set of > people at cyclic? it's the first time i've seen it.. Same as info@cyclic.com; it is people who are "part of" Cyclic. That means people who have done paid work for Cyclic, and are still interested in Cyclic. Jim Kingdon, Jim Blandy, Noel Cragg, and Karl Fogel. One of the tasks to be moved over, assuming that this plan goes forward, is figuring out who answers info@cyclic.com. It gets a wide variety of mail, but much of it is technical questions from non-customers, which I currently answer with a one sentence form letter: I would suggest the mailing lists and other resources at http://www.cyclic.com/cvs/report.html From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:11 1999 X-From-Line: kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 17:32:48 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA25813 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:32:46 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:32:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA10937; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:03:58 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09649; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:01:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:01:09 -0400 Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <199906222101.RAA09649@harvey.cyclic.com> Message-Id: <199906222101.RAA09649@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: justin@master.debian.org CC: kfogel@red-bean.com, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: <19990622150046.B32260@master.debian.org> (message from Justin Maurer on Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:00:46 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> <19990622150046.B32260@master.debian.org> Lines: 17 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1286 > finally, i'm curious. who receives cyclic@cyclic.com? is it a list? a set of > people at cyclic? it's the first time i've seen it.. Same as info@cyclic.com; it is people who are "part of" Cyclic. That means people who have done paid work for Cyclic, and are still interested in Cyclic. Jim Kingdon, Jim Blandy, Noel Cragg, and Karl Fogel. One of the tasks to be moved over, assuming that this plan goes forward, is figuring out who answers info@cyclic.com. It gets a wide variety of mail, but much of it is technical questions from non-customers, which I currently answer with a one sentence form letter: I would suggest the mailing lists and other resources at http://www.cyclic.com/cvs/report.html From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:11 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 17:33:48 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA25828 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:33:44 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:33:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11042; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:37:32 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09735 for cyclic-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09726; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:38 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199906222134.RAA09726@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 36 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1287 > If funding becomes an issue, we could probably do banner ads along the > top. Doubtful - the site doesn't get enough hits (although if you want to try to back-of-the-envelope this, go on over to linkexchange.com or whoever buys banner ad space from small sites). For what it is worth, the current "ads" (Amazon.com) make about $100/month (numbers at http://www.cyclic.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb/cyclic-admin/amazon or some URL like that). My advice would probably be to stick with in-kind contributions (hardware, bandwidth, &c) - if you are getting free bandwidth and also trying to sell ads it gets weird (does the ISP get the money from the ads?). > JimK, can you forward this mail to the CVS developers? As a "former > developer" I can't send mail to the devel-cvs. :-) Done. > It's not entirely clear to me whether whoever takes over the business > side will need to inherit the "cyclic.com" domain as an explicit > business asset as well. Uh, yeah, you said a mouthful there. I'm not really sure what to suggest - there is a lot of stuff at cyclic.com which need not continue to be associated with the business but the Cyclic brand itself might be hard to move over piecemeal and impossible to move over as long as Cyclic still has support customers (at least another year). It isn't so much that the Cyclic brand is an "asset" in the sense of something which I'm dying to get money for (although offers are accepted), but it may be hard to quickly separate it from the support business. I don't know, keep thinking about this one... From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:12 1999 X-From-Line: kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 17:33:56 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA25831 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:33:52 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:33:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11038; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:37:22 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09726; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:38 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:38 -0400 Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <199906222134.RAA09726@harvey.cyclic.com> Message-Id: <199906222134.RAA09726@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> Lines: 36 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1288 > If funding becomes an issue, we could probably do banner ads along the > top. Doubtful - the site doesn't get enough hits (although if you want to try to back-of-the-envelope this, go on over to linkexchange.com or whoever buys banner ad space from small sites). For what it is worth, the current "ads" (Amazon.com) make about $100/month (numbers at http://www.cyclic.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb/cyclic-admin/amazon or some URL like that). My advice would probably be to stick with in-kind contributions (hardware, bandwidth, &c) - if you are getting free bandwidth and also trying to sell ads it gets weird (does the ISP get the money from the ads?). > JimK, can you forward this mail to the CVS developers? As a "former > developer" I can't send mail to the devel-cvs. :-) Done. > It's not entirely clear to me whether whoever takes over the business > side will need to inherit the "cyclic.com" domain as an explicit > business asset as well. Uh, yeah, you said a mouthful there. I'm not really sure what to suggest - there is a lot of stuff at cyclic.com which need not continue to be associated with the business but the Cyclic brand itself might be hard to move over piecemeal and impossible to move over as long as Cyclic still has support customers (at least another year). It isn't so much that the Cyclic brand is an "asset" in the sense of something which I'm dying to get money for (although offers are accepted), but it may be hard to quickly separate it from the support business. I don't know, keep thinking about this one... From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:12 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 17:34:16 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA25837 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:12 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11117; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:57:49 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09796 for cyclic-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:55:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from hh.alink.net (hh.alink.net [207.135.127.85]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09792; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:55:03 -0400 Received: from zildjian.hq.alink.net (lc.alink.net [207.135.127.87]) by hh.alink.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22005; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mab@localhost) by zildjian.hq.alink.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24859; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:54:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mab) To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Matt Braithwaite Reply-To: mab@red-bean.com X-Attribution: mab X-Face: @fge8WW'#w^hZghU$,3gfTP2@56+jGR+wSn|.Ddh,5d6qi")q;sCrYh[W;z-]Q0avfG):{3&hq61!)x&&PUrp%upUD9v9bB2_bw-"0v(87+A`?=1+P`# Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 22 Jun 1999 14:54:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: Karl Fogel's message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500" Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <86emj3dhp1.fsf@zildjian.hq.alink.net> Message-ID: <86emj3dhp1.fsf@zildjian.hq.alink.net> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1289 Lines: 32 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500, Karl Fogel said: Karl> Well, you recipients are in a position to help out with the Karl> CCCP by donating server space or technical skills. Although there have been many offers of help I'll just throw mine in too: I have received Official Permission to colocate a machine at work (A-Link Network Services, Sunnyvale CA), which I will do as soon as I get off my lazy fat ass. I will continue to maintain this machine there or elsewhere regardless of future changes to my employment situation---it's intended as a permanent home for me. It will probably run NetBSD or BSD/OS (BSDI Inc's flavor of BSD), and will have mirrored disks. My aim is more no data loss than no downtime, but downtime should be low. The hitches are these: (1) there isn't any bandwidth limitation now, but it's in the cards, and I haven't really discussed precise numbers with work yet. So, accurate traffic numbers for the services y'all are thinking of transferring are important to thinking about this (maybe throw MRTG on Cyclic machines)? (2) My colo box doesn't actually exist yet. (How much time pressure is there?) This machine can also do backup MX and DNS for red-bean, when it exists, btw. I figured after two years of working at an ISP it was about time for me to share the wealth. :-) -- Matt Braithwaite, 8A 98 23 A1 E9 DF 98 57 F4 09 A3 00 BC 64 54 A3 ``You'll find me at the cathedral if you need me.'' --Poul-Henning Kamp, FreeBSD Core Team Member From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:13 1999 X-From-Line: nemo@gratuitous.org Tue Jun 22 22:49:12 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA25989 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:49:09 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:49:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA11627; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:19:47 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0400 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1290 Lines: 14 I think it would be pretty amusing if red-bean and cyclic rejoined each other. It wasn't that long ago that the URL of my homepage changed from www.cyclic.com/~nemo to www.red-bean.com/~nemo; it would sort of be nifty if the old URL started pointing to my current home page again. I probably can cause a machine to appear on the net somewhere that could be used for this, but it looks like other people are finding resources and have more time than I do right now. I don't understand why people think sanpietro would be inadaquate. totoro was the web and mail server for cyclic.com until a few years ago, and it worked just fine then. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:13 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 23:27:07 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA26051 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:27:03 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:27:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11851; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:04:34 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA09359 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:01:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from floss.red-bean.com (floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09355; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:01:43 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA26018; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:03:35 -0500 To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: world domination wasn't enough -- we had to write bad software, too! From: Karl Fogel Date: 22 Jun 1999 23:03:34 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Joel N. Weber II"'s message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Status: O Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1291 Lines: 25 "Joel N. Weber II" writes: > I don't understand why people think sanpietro would be inadaquate. > totoro was the web and mail server for cyclic.com until a few years > ago, and it worked just fine then. I'm not sure either, I'm just echoing what other people tell me. :-) Seriously... I'd also be interested in hearing specific reasons why sanpietro wouldn't be enough, but I think I can come up with some of them myself: It has to handle not just mail and web, but repository access (developers and anonymous r/o), the GNATS database, and ftp access. In any one of these, network bandwidth is the first bottleneck, but taken together they start adding up to processor and disk use too (particularly when two or more of them are going on at once). A billion cycles here, a billion cycles there, and pretty soon you're talking about real CPU time. :) And what if the developers want to have automated builds in cron or something like that? (True, these don't all _have_ to be on the same box, but it would a lot easier from an admin point of view if they were. Let's put it this way: personally, I'd sooner advocate hosting it all at VA Research than splitting the functions across several boxen.) From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:13 1999 X-From-Line: nemo@gratuitous.org Tue Jun 22 23:27:28 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA26061 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:27:23 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:27:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA11882; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:13:12 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:16 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: "Joel N. Weber II" , kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 22 Jun 1999 23:03:34 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:16 -0400 Status: O Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1293 Lines: 33 It has to handle not just mail and web, but repository access (developers and anonymous r/o), the GNATS database, and ftp access. In any one of these, network bandwidth is the first bottleneck, but taken together they start adding up to processor and disk use too (particularly when two or more of them are going on at once). A billion cycles here, a billion cycles there, and pretty soon you're talking about real CPU time. :) And what if the developers want to have automated builds in cron or something like that? The FSF runs its main mail server, with a lot of lists, on a 486. It works. Admittedly, the pessimization created by running smartlist and sendmail instead of something sane does strech the limits of the 486, but still... I have a hard time believing the argument you provide above. (True, these don't all _have_ to be on the same box, but it would a lot easier from an admin point of view if they were. Let's put it this way: personally, I'd sooner advocate hosting it all at VA Research than splitting the functions across several boxen.) If VA Research wants to do something reasonable, that's fine with me. Red Bean manages to get adaquate sysadmining done, but I don't exactly get the feeling that the cooks want to find a lot more sysadmining to do, and I don't know whether us hosting cyclic would add any more sysadmins to Red Bean. FWIW, the load average on gnudist.gnu.org is about .25 right now; that machine is both www.gnu.org and ftp.gnu.org. I imagine it gets an order of magnitude more usage than cyclic.com will, perhaps two orders of magnitude. The hardware you can get from VA is complete overkill. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:13 1999 X-From-Line: kfogel@floss.onshore.com Wed Jun 23 00:11:48 1999 >From kfogel Wed Jun 23 00:11:48 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26120 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:11:44 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:11:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11978; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:49:37 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA26087; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:48:56 -0500 To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: if SIGINT doesn't work, try a tranquilizer. From: Karl Fogel Date: 22 Jun 1999 23:48:54 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Joel N. Weber II"'s message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:16 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1298 Lines: 27 "Joel N. Weber II" writes: > If VA Research wants to do something reasonable, that's fine with me. > Red Bean manages to get adaquate sysadmining done, but I don't exactly > get the feeling that the cooks want to find a lot more sysadmining to > do, and I don't know whether us hosting cyclic would add any more > sysadmins to Red Bean. I should have said up front that I wasn't really expecting all the cooks to share the burden. I would be the party of final responsibility, I suppose, to ensure that tasks don't get neglected because each person expects someone else to do it. Probably we would acquire more sysadmins eventually, though, from among the people associated with CVS (if JimK is interested, I'll propose him as one right away). Slight Subject Change: I realized that part of the reason I didn't want to go with VA Research was a kind of instinctive distrust of the profit motive, especially with rapidly-growing startups that are probably going to have an IPO soon :-). I'm not sure my instinct is _all_ wrong, either, but anyway it's not enough by itself to be the basis of a decision. So I read http://www.varesearch.com/outreach/network.html, and will send them a "feeler" email (will CC y'all). It might be a good solution after all. At least it's worth investigating more before deciding. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:13 1999 X-From-Line: justin@master.debian.org Wed Jun 23 00:23:54 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26149 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:51 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA12039 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:12:56 -0500 Received: (qmail 22388 invoked by uid 1246); 23 Jun 1999 05:10:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:11 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: kfogel@red-bean.com, cooks@red-bean.com, nemo@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Message-ID: <19990623001011.B13210@master.debian.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Fogel on Tue, Jun 22, 1999 at 11:48:54PM -0500 X-Illuminati: You are not reading this Lines: 20 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1299 > I realized that part of the reason I didn't want to go with VA > Research was a kind of instinctive distrust of the profit motive, > especially with rapidly-growing startups that are probably going to > have an IPO soon :-). I'm not sure my instinct is _all_ wrong, > either, but anyway it's not enough by itself to be the basis of a > decision. So I read http://www.varesearch.com/outreach/network.html, > and will send them a "feeler" email (will CC y'all). It might be a it's not all wrong, but VA is just an awesome company in general. they've done selfless things (as a debian person, i speak from experience), and just have incredibl(y kind) people working there. if you'd rather, i can talk to chris @ va about getting web/cvs/ftp/etc. space. he told me that if i ever needed anything that i should just drop him a line. -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:14 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 12:14:42 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA26937 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:14:41 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:14:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12122; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:33:01 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09639 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:30:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from floss.red-bean.com (floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09636 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:30:14 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA26177; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:32:05 -0500 To: Justin Maurer Cc: cooks@red-bean.com, nemo@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <19990623001011.B13210@master.debian.org> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: we've got the solution for the problem we sold you. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 00:32:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: Justin Maurer's message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:11 -0500" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1309 Lines: 19 Justin Maurer writes: > it's not all wrong, but VA is just an awesome company in > general. they've done selfless things (as a debian person, i speak > from experience), and just have incredibl(y kind) people working > there. if you'd rather, i can talk to chris @ va about getting > web/cvs/ftp/etc. space. he told me that if i ever needed anything > that i should just drop him a line. Cool! That endorsement is really helpful -- your personal experience counts for so much more than all the kilobytes of propaganda on their web pages. Yeah, hey, drop him a line and let him know you're involved. Probably we still shouldn't commit to them until we've thought about it a bit more, but in the meantime we can try to massage their attitude to be as favorable as possible. :-) From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:14 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 00:24:02 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26153 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:58 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:24:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12047; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:13:00 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09589 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:10:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09586 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:10:15 -0400 Received: (qmail 22388 invoked by uid 1246); 23 Jun 1999 05:10:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:11 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: kfogel@red-bean.com, cooks@red-bean.com, nemo@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <19990623001011.B13210@master.debian.org> Message-ID: <19990623001011.B13210@master.debian.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Fogel on Tue, Jun 22, 1999 at 11:48:54PM -0500 X-Illuminati: You are not reading this Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 20 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1300 > I realized that part of the reason I didn't want to go with VA > Research was a kind of instinctive distrust of the profit motive, > especially with rapidly-growing startups that are probably going to > have an IPO soon :-). I'm not sure my instinct is _all_ wrong, > either, but anyway it's not enough by itself to be the basis of a > decision. So I read http://www.varesearch.com/outreach/network.html, > and will send them a "feeler" email (will CC y'all). It might be a it's not all wrong, but VA is just an awesome company in general. they've done selfless things (as a debian person, i speak from experience), and just have incredibl(y kind) people working there. if you'd rather, i can talk to chris @ va about getting web/cvs/ftp/etc. space. he told me that if i ever needed anything that i should just drop him a line. -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:14 1999 X-From-Line: justin@master.debian.org Wed Jun 23 00:24:10 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26156 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:24:06 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:24:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA12040 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:12:56 -0500 Received: (qmail 22388 invoked by uid 1246); 23 Jun 1999 05:10:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:11 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: kfogel@red-bean.com, cooks@red-bean.com, nemo@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <19990623001011.B13210@master.debian.org> Message-ID: <19990623001011.B13210@master.debian.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Fogel on Tue, Jun 22, 1999 at 11:48:54PM -0500 X-Illuminati: You are not reading this Lines: 20 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1301 > I realized that part of the reason I didn't want to go with VA > Research was a kind of instinctive distrust of the profit motive, > especially with rapidly-growing startups that are probably going to > have an IPO soon :-). I'm not sure my instinct is _all_ wrong, > either, but anyway it's not enough by itself to be the basis of a > decision. So I read http://www.varesearch.com/outreach/network.html, > and will send them a "feeler" email (will CC y'all). It might be a it's not all wrong, but VA is just an awesome company in general. they've done selfless things (as a debian person, i speak from experience), and just have incredibl(y kind) people working there. if you'd rather, i can talk to chris @ va about getting web/cvs/ftp/etc. space. he told me that if i ever needed anything that i should just drop him a line. -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:15 1999 X-From-Line: nemo@gratuitous.org Wed Jun 23 20:35:28 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA27436 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:35:20 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:35:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA14908; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:20:39 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:17:40 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 22 Jun 1999 23:48:54 -0500) Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:17:40 -0400 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1320 Lines: 81 "Joel N. Weber II" writes: > If VA Research wants to do something reasonable, that's fine with me. > Red Bean manages to get adaquate sysadmining done, but I don't exactly > get the feeling that the cooks want to find a lot more sysadmining to > do, and I don't know whether us hosting cyclic would add any more > sysadmins to Red Bean. I should have said up front that I wasn't really expecting all the cooks to share the burden. I think we're trying to use different words to describe the same thing, or something. I think what you're trying to tell me is that nobody's going to be upset that I have root on sanpietro but may not have time to help with maintaining cyclic related stuff. That's what I expect, and I assume no discussion of that is necessary. The problem is that in practice, someone is going to have to do the work. Sooner or later, I may get annoyed that nobody is fixing some problem which specifically exists only because of the cyclic people, and make the time in my busy schedule. Or perhaps Karl's going to be so busy doing cyclic stuff because he promised that he was going to do all of the cyclic stuff so that the rest of us have to do all the non-cyclic stuff on sanpietro without Karl's help. Now, the above paragraphs may reflect some of my bitterness in dealing with the FSF; don't take it personally. I certainly don't have any objection to cyclic using sanpietro. I just want to say that even after we promise ourselves that we aren't making extra work for ourselves, we should keep in mind that that probably isn't the case. I would be the party of final responsibility, I suppose, to ensure that tasks don't get neglected because each person expects someone else to do it. Does this mean `kfogel promises to make sure that communication failures don't happen', or does this mean `kfogel intends to resolve all problems that anyone else is too lame to resolve'? Probably we would acquire more sysadmins eventually, though, from among the people associated with CVS (if JimK is interested, I'll propose him as one right away). So the red-bean community would grow as a result of sanpietro being the home of cyclic? I think that's certainly a positive thing to have happen. I realized that part of the reason I didn't want to go with VA Research was a kind of instinctive distrust of the profit motive, especially with rapidly-growing startups that are probably going to have an IPO soon :-). I'm not sure my instinct is _all_ wrong, either, but anyway it's not enough by itself to be the basis of a decision. So I read http://www.varesearch.com/outreach/network.html, and will send them a "feeler" email (will CC y'all). It might be a good solution after all. At least it's worth investigating more before deciding. Rapidly growing startups can change their flavor with time. Once upon a time, the FSF decided to have www.gnu.org hosted at nol.net, and back then nol.net was cool. After about two generations of completely replacing people, nol.net started really sucking. So then the FSF switched to VA. Maybe VA will do well, maybe it won't. I will also mention that Athena Server Ops did a better job of running ftp.gnu.org than VA does. Athena has people who know what they're doing, and do their job well. Due to a combination of lame political reasons RMS had, and the fact that the FSF likes having root access to our machine, which we get at VA but not Athena, we moved to VA. VA does OK, but the VA sysadmins aren't wizards. There were some problems with their reverse DNS configuration that I complained to VA about. Then there was the time gnudist went down for about a week because everyone involved in running it didn't realize that the stock ftpd doesn't DTRT when you have tons and tons of users. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:15 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 23:27:45 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA26067 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:27:43 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:27:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11911; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:24:06 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA09438 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:21:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from hh.alink.net (hh.alink.net [207.135.127.85]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09434; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:21:20 -0400 Received: from zildjian.hq.alink.net (lc.alink.net [207.135.127.87]) by hh.alink.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24646; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mab@localhost) by zildjian.hq.alink.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28397; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mab) From: Matt Braithwaite Reply-To: mab@red-bean.com X-Attribution: mab X-Face: @fge8WW'#w^hZghU$,3gfTP2@56+jGR+wSn|.Ddh,5d6qi")q;sCrYh[W;z-]Q0avfG):{3&hq61!)x&&PUrp%upUD9v9bB2_bw-"0v(87+A`?=1+P`# To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 22 Jun 1999 21:20:25 -0700 In-Reply-To: "Joel N. Weber II"'s message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0400" Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <86n1xrbl9y.fsf@zildjian.hq.alink.net> Message-ID: <86n1xrbl9y.fsf@zildjian.hq.alink.net> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Status: O Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1292 Lines: 18 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0400, "Joel N. Weber II" said: JNW2> I don't understand why people think sanpietro would be JNW2> inadaquate. totoro was the web and mail server for JNW2> cyclic.com until a few years ago, and it worked just fine JNW2> then. Even if the machine is adequate, its hosts may not wish to bear the bandwidth cost of hosting this new stuff. Although, Karl seems to think this will work out okay. Not knowing how fat either Cyclic's or onShore's pipes presently are, I should probably not spin theories on this subject, though. -- Matt Braithwaite, 8A 98 23 A1 E9 DF 98 57 F4 09 A3 00 BC 64 54 A3 ``You'll find me at the cathedral if you need me.'' --Poul-Henning Kamp, FreeBSD Core Team Member From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:15 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 15:51:57 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25729 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:51:42 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:51:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10675; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:37:37 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09472 for cyclic-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:34:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09468; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:34:34 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA01752; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:37 -0500 Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> Message-Id: <199906221934.OAA01752@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: because one operating system isn't enough. Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 132 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1279 As most of you have probably heard by now, Jim Kingdon got a job with Red Hat software (congratulations! And have a lovely IPO, indeed). This email describes a plan to ensure that JimK's departure from Cyclic does not result in fear, uncertainty, or doubt in the CVS community. The Cyclic web/download sites are a major community resource; everyone who uses CVS knows to go to www.cyclic.com for information, patches, etc. And download.cyclic.com is the "everyone knows" place to find new releases. Most importantly, cvs.cyclic.com hosts the repository -- a whole lot of working copies out there (including all the read-only checkouts) refer to it. It would be Highly Desirable if *.cyclic.com could remain unaffected by JimK's employment situation. Jim and I talked by phone this weekend, and I think he feels the same way. However, he has a lot of other stuff to do right now, as you can imagine, so I've sort of volunteered to worry up a Cyclic/CVS Continuity Plan (uh, we'll just refer to it as the "CCCP" from now on... or is that one taken?). Anyway: my proposal is essentially that "Cyclic Software" transform into a non-profit group -- perhaps formally, if necessary -- responsible for supporting the CVS maintainers (by supplying repository and mailing list services, mainly), and keeping the cyclic.com domain alive and well, for the public's benefit. I'm willing to do the paperwork for this, including consulting a lawyer and registering a non-profit if needed, and writing up a transfer agreement. Help is welcome, of course. :-) Just to be utterly clear here: Things that would change: - The IP address(es) and physical servers for *.cyclic.com. - The person/people responsible for sysadminning the servers Things that would NOT change: - All the URLs within cyclic.com - The CVS maintainers (including JimK) - The CVS maintainance & development policies Eventually, the home page at www.cyclic.com would lose its businessy aspects and focus even more on its community-resource aspects. If funding becomes an issue, we could probably do banner ads along the top. It's enough of a known resource that I'm pretty sure places like VA Research, O'Reilly, etc, would purchase ad space. (However, that's speculation at this point; we can decide after the transfer). So, why this email? Well, you recipients are in a position to help out with the CCCP by donating server space or technical skills. Let me do some quick introductions: Justin Maurer is a founding member of IFT (http://linux.hypnotic.org), a free-software-oriented non-profit organization. (JimK gave me Justin's name). Justin, the other recipients are members of Red Bean Software (http://www.red-bean.com), which is a lot like IFT although we're not an officially registered non-profit. My questions are: 1. Does IFT or Red Bean have any interest in providing server space? We're talking a medium-sized load; see http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat/199905.download.html http://www.cyclic.com/wwwstat/199905.www.html for numbers. The quick summary is: 10g last month. 2. Do individual IFT or Red Bean members want to volunteer to help with the technical tasks involved in transferring? I (and Justin too, I think) have already pretty much committed ourselves to making sure this Goes Right. Anyone else want to help out? 3. Comments? Suggestions? Perils to watch out for? You are all people who can give good feedback, so let's have it. (JimK, can you forward this mail to the CVS developers? As a "former developer" I can't send mail to the devel-cvs. :-) ) DEFAULT ACTION PROPOSAL: In order to provide a default course of action, I propose that Red Bean host *.cyclic.com on our main server, as we do other sites. We've managed to stay continuously connected for four years now, so I think we're pretty stable. And this would be a significant contribution to the free software community. We'd probably have to upgrade our main server, but it was about time to do that anyway. If we all chip in, it won't cost that much. Oh: I'll talk to our ISP about bandwidth issues, but I'm almost positive they'll be in favor, as they are heavy users of CVS themselves. (IFT, I don't know anything about your Net connection status, so won't try to speak for you.) By the way, this email is *not* about who will inherit Cyclic's support contracts. That's totally JimK's call. It's not entirely clear to me whether whoever takes over the business side will need to inherit the "cyclic.com" domain as an explicit business asset as well. If the domain does end up getting transferred as a business asset, that complicates things, so I'm not going to address that issue unless/until necessary. One other note: I know many of you have heard me say in the past that I think the current CVS maintenance/development scheme could use some tweaking. I still think that's true; HOWEVER, the transfer of network services to a new location should not be used as an excuse to make changes to how CVS is maintained -- the two are unrelated. *After* the transfer has been effected, and things are stable again, then I will propose some changes to the developers and we'll see what happens. It would be bad to have two instability-causing things going on at once, and the server transfer is more urgent at this time, so that should happen first. The same goes for the web site design: I can think of some improvements, Justin mentioned that he had some ideas in that department, and I know many of you also had some suggestions about how it could be better. JimK also wanted to be able to devote more time to it, I believe. However, for now, let's just make sure the web site remains online; later, we can make changes to its appearance. (I don't think we'll have any problems resolving disagreements over what it should look like: we all have the same goals here. But anyway, that's a separate discussion.) I think our timeline is to make this all happen within the next month or at most two (JimK, please correct if wrong). Okay, that's it. Thoughts?, -Karl P.S. I've sent this from my work address, but please reply to kfogel@red-bean.com. The "Reply-to:" header is already set for you. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:15 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Tue Jun 22 15:52:24 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25735 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:52:22 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:52:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10745; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:00:45 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09507 for cyclic-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:58:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09503; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:57:57 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA01797; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:57:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:57:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199906221957.OAA01797@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: complex nonsolutions to simple nonproblems. Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 11 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1280 Just a quick followup: I talked to the president of our (Red Bean's) ISP; he's quite enthusiastically in favor and doesn't think the bandwidth will be a problem. He wants to run it by the other officers, but I doubt any of them will object, as they're all free software advocates themselves. I'll let y'all know when the final confirmation is in. If they go for it, and Red Bean hosts, then we should put a note on the page thanking onShore, just as we do the red-bean home page. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:16 1999 X-From-Line: kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com Tue Jun 22 15:53:20 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25744 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:53:09 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10742 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:00:43 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA01797; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:57:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:57:48 -0500 Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <199906221957.OAA01797@guanabana.onshore.com> Message-Id: <199906221957.OAA01797@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: complex nonsolutions to simple nonproblems. Lines: 11 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1281 Just a quick followup: I talked to the president of our (Red Bean's) ISP; he's quite enthusiastically in favor and doesn't think the bandwidth will be a problem. He wants to run it by the other officers, but I doubt any of them will object, as they're all free software advocates themselves. I'll let y'all know when the final confirmation is in. If they go for it, and Red Bean hosts, then we should put a note on the page thanking onShore, just as we do the red-bean home page. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:18 1999 X-From-Line: bwf@gelato.onshore.com Wed Jun 23 00:11:32 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26113 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:11:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from queso.onshore.com (root@queso.onshore.com [206.69.89.34]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11944; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:41:11 -0500 Received: from gelato.onshore.com (bwf@gelato.onshore.com [206.69.90.34]) by queso.onshore.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA31519; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:37:45 -0500 (CDT) Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <199906230437.XAA31519@queso.onshore.com> Message-Id: <199906230437.XAA31519@queso.onshore.com> Reply-to: fitz@red-bean.com From: "B. W. Fitzpatrick" To: Jim Kingdon cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:38 -0400." <199906222134.RAA09726@harvey.cyclic.com> X-Windows: all the problems and twice the bugs. Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:42:19 +0000 Sender: bwf@gelato.onshore.com Lines: 37 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1295 > > If funding becomes an issue, we could probably do banner ads along the > > top. > Doubtful - the site doesn't get enough hits (although if you want to > try to back-of-the-envelope this, go on over to linkexchange.com or > whoever buys banner ad space from small sites). For what it is worth, > the current "ads" (Amazon.com) make about $100/month (numbers at > http://www.cyclic.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb/cyclic-admin/amazon or some URL > like that). > My advice would probably be to stick with in-kind contributions > (hardware, bandwidth, &c) - if you are getting free bandwidth and also > trying to sell ads it gets weird (does the ISP get the money from the > ads?). I for one agree with Jim on sticking to in-kind contributions. The ad banner idea does bring up the rather sticky problem of profit-sharing along with the myriad of other problem that Real Dollars brings to a charity situation (hosting in this case). In any case, I don't think that it would be too hard to scrounge up a hardware donation or 2 for the server (not for the immediate transfer, but definitely for the long term), and the (unratified) offer of bandwidth is already on the table. Heck, give me 4 hours, and I'll betcha I can conjure up some flavor of pentium and a few gig of disk just by hunting around the office. On top of that, I would be more than glad to help out wherever I could (sysadminning/programming/managing) if we were to host the cyclic.com domain. CVS has dragged my ass out of the flaming fires of hell more than once (twice in the last month alone as a matter of fact). -Fitz PS For those of you who don't know me, I work with Karl, Craig and Lefty at onShore. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:19 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 00:11:24 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26110 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:11:20 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:11:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11947; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:41:13 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA09463 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:38:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from queso.onshore.com (root@queso.onshore.com [206.69.89.34]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09459; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:38:27 -0400 Received: from gelato.onshore.com (bwf@gelato.onshore.com [206.69.90.34]) by queso.onshore.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA31519; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:37:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906230437.XAA31519@queso.onshore.com> Reply-to: fitz@red-bean.com From: "B. W. Fitzpatrick" To: Jim Kingdon cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:38 -0400." <199906222134.RAA09726@harvey.cyclic.com> X-Windows: all the problems and twice the bugs. Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:42:19 +0000 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1297 Lines: 37 > > If funding becomes an issue, we could probably do banner ads along the > > top. > Doubtful - the site doesn't get enough hits (although if you want to > try to back-of-the-envelope this, go on over to linkexchange.com or > whoever buys banner ad space from small sites). For what it is worth, > the current "ads" (Amazon.com) make about $100/month (numbers at > http://www.cyclic.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb/cyclic-admin/amazon or some URL > like that). > My advice would probably be to stick with in-kind contributions > (hardware, bandwidth, &c) - if you are getting free bandwidth and also > trying to sell ads it gets weird (does the ISP get the money from the > ads?). I for one agree with Jim on sticking to in-kind contributions. The ad banner idea does bring up the rather sticky problem of profit-sharing along with the myriad of other problem that Real Dollars brings to a charity situation (hosting in this case). In any case, I don't think that it would be too hard to scrounge up a hardware donation or 2 for the server (not for the immediate transfer, but definitely for the long term), and the (unratified) offer of bandwidth is already on the table. Heck, give me 4 hours, and I'll betcha I can conjure up some flavor of pentium and a few gig of disk just by hunting around the office. On top of that, I would be more than glad to help out wherever I could (sysadminning/programming/managing) if we were to host the cyclic.com domain. CVS has dragged my ass out of the flaming fires of hell more than once (twice in the last month alone as a matter of fact). -Fitz PS For those of you who don't know me, I work with Karl, Craig and Lefty at onShore. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:19 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 20:54:44 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA27487 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:54:39 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:54:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA15150; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:48:44 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07950 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:45:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@sanpietro.red-bean.com [206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07946; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:45:57 -0400 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA15142; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:48:29 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA27454; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:47:50 -0500 To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: please see http://www.red-bean.com/ccp.html References: Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: live the nightmare. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 20:47:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Joel N. Weber II"'s message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:17:40 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1321 Lines: 47 Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Does this mean `kfogel promises to make sure that communication > failures don't happen', or does this mean `kfogel intends to resolve > all problems that anyone else is too lame to resolve'? The latter. :-) Your experience with VA (below) are very interesting; I think we should definitely take it into account. Although I have to admit the VA solution is looking better IMHO than it did before. Anyway... If people have time, please check out http://www.red-bean.com/ccp.html which describes this whole project rather more formally (and also describes a decision-making process for us to fall back on in case consensus doesn't work, not that I expect that to happen). There is also a new mailing list, ccp@red-bean.com, so we don't have to have that long CC list anymore (nor bother all the cooks@red-bean with a matter only some of them are concerned with). > Rapidly growing startups can change their flavor with time. > > Once upon a time, the FSF decided to have www.gnu.org hosted at > nol.net, and back then nol.net was cool. > > After about two generations of completely replacing people, nol.net > started really sucking. > > So then the FSF switched to VA. Maybe VA will do well, maybe it > won't. > > I will also mention that Athena Server Ops did a better job of running > ftp.gnu.org than VA does. Athena has people who know what they're > doing, and do their job well. Due to a combination of lame political > reasons RMS had, and the fact that the FSF likes having root access to > our machine, which we get at VA but not Athena, we moved to VA. VA > does OK, but the VA sysadmins aren't wizards. There were some > problems with their reverse DNS configuration that I complained to VA > about. Then there was the time gnudist went down for about a week > because everyone involved in running it didn't realize that the stock > ftpd doesn't DTRT when you have tons and tons of users. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:20 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 00:24:35 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26165 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:24:31 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:24:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12087; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:41 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09626 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:20:58 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from floss.red-bean.com (floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09622; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:20:50 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA26136; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:22:42 -0500 To: fitz@red-bean.com Cc: Jim Kingdon , justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906230437.XAA31519@queso.onshore.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: we've got the solution for the problem we sold you. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 00:22:41 -0500 In-Reply-To: "B. W. Fitzpatrick"'s message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:42:19 +0000" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1304 Lines: 34 I agree with what everyone (besides me) has said about banner-ads. It was a bad idea, raises all sorts of sticky issues, and just plain isn't necessary. Thanks for the feedback! As for possible hardware donations: As you all saw, I just mailed an inquiry to VA Research about possibly becoming one of their community projects. If Chris's answer is that they want to do it, but that only they will have root on the box, I think we should turn it down (not because we're power hungry, but simply because it's way, way too inconvenient to not have root when you're trying to administrate a site). However, I *would* then ask him if they'd be willing to donate a good box, in return for public acknowledgment on the front page. So the home page would then have a thank-you to onShore (for net connection) and VA Research (for server). For the record, I not only don't mind such acknowledgements, I even think they're a good thing in a way: it's nice for visitors to see that others support the same things they do. Raising the visibility of existing community involvement can only encourage *more* community involvement. > On top of that, I would be more than glad to help out wherever I could > (sysadminning/programming/managing) if we were to host the cyclic.com > domain. CVS has dragged my ass out of the flaming fires of hell more > than once (twice in the last month alone as a matter of fact). Thanks for the volunteering! (And "Amen", too. As you said recently in another forum, programming without CVS would be like parachuting without a parachute.) From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:21 1999 X-From-Line: kfogel@floss.onshore.com Wed Jun 23 12:14:35 1999 >From kfogel Wed Jun 23 12:14:35 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA26934 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:14:32 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:14:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12083; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:21 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA26136; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:22:42 -0500 To: fitz@red-bean.com Cc: Jim Kingdon , justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: continuity of cyclic.com resources (www, download, and repository) References: <199906230437.XAA31519@queso.onshore.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: we've got the solution for the problem we sold you. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 00:22:41 -0500 In-Reply-To: "B. W. Fitzpatrick"'s message of "Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:42:19 +0000" Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1308 Lines: 34 I agree with what everyone (besides me) has said about banner-ads. It was a bad idea, raises all sorts of sticky issues, and just plain isn't necessary. Thanks for the feedback! As for possible hardware donations: As you all saw, I just mailed an inquiry to VA Research about possibly becoming one of their community projects. If Chris's answer is that they want to do it, but that only they will have root on the box, I think we should turn it down (not because we're power hungry, but simply because it's way, way too inconvenient to not have root when you're trying to administrate a site). However, I *would* then ask him if they'd be willing to donate a good box, in return for public acknowledgment on the front page. So the home page would then have a thank-you to onShore (for net connection) and VA Research (for server). For the record, I not only don't mind such acknowledgements, I even think they're a good thing in a way: it's nice for visitors to see that others support the same things they do. Raising the visibility of existing community involvement can only encourage *more* community involvement. > On top of that, I would be more than glad to help out wherever I could > (sysadminning/programming/managing) if we were to host the cyclic.com > domain. CVS has dragged my ass out of the flaming fires of hell more > than once (twice in the last month alone as a matter of fact). Thanks for the volunteering! (And "Amen", too. As you said recently in another forum, programming without CVS would be like parachuting without a parachute.) From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:23 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 00:23:47 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA26146 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:43 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:23:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12026; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:12:26 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09576 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:09:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from floss.red-bean.com (floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09572; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:09:23 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA26103; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:10:55 -0500 To: chris@varesearch.com CC: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: making the world a better place... for Microsoft. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 00:10:55 -0500 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Status: O Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1303 Lines: 42 It may soon be necessary for the CVS home sites (www.cyclic.com, download.cyclic.com, cvs.cyclic.com) to be hosted on new servers. Is this be the sort of community project VA Research would be interested in supporting (i.e., donating server space and net connection)? We're looking at several options right now, and you're one of them. :-) The short explanation: Jim Kingdon , Cyclic Software's sole proprietor, is moving on to greener pastures, so Cyclic may soon be turning into a non-profit devoted to the development and dissemination of CVS. Our goal is to make sure that this transition does not disrupt CVS maintenance/development, and to make sure that the Net addresses most users associate with CVS remain unchanged. Even though Cyclic has officially been for-profit up till now, http://www.cyclic.com has been more of a community resource than a business site anyway; we'd like to see it stay that way. So, we're talking about roughly 10G/month bandwidth, from: - a web site - a ftp site - the master CVS repository (both commit & read-only access) - various mailing lists - a GNATS bug database I'm not sure yet of the exact disk footprint of all the above; looking at some of the other sites you host, I think this one would be nearer the small end, though. :-) Also, does only VA have root access when you do sites like this, or...? (I'm just trying to figure out the maintenance overhead of this option for us.) Jim Kingdon is busy worrying about other aspects of the transition right now, which is why it's me writing this not him :-). (By the way, I'm not sure how public Jim wants this news to be, so I guess keep it as confidential as you can unless he says it's okay to spread it around.) Anyway, he is on the CC list of this mail, so do follow-up not reply. Thanks for your time, -Karl Fogel From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:24 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 12:17:54 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA27006 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:17:49 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:17:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA13055; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:53:37 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10214 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:50:50 -0400 Received: from oxygen.su.varesearch.com (gw.varesearch.com [209.81.8.2]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10210; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:50:47 -0400 Received: from hydrogen.su.varesearch.com ([10.1.0.1] helo=yttrium.su.varesearch.com) by oxygen.su.varesearch.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #6) id 10woMF-0002N8-00; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:35 -0700 Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by yttrium.su.varesearch.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07281; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: yttrium.su.varesearch.com: chris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris DiBona X-Sender: chris@yttrium.su.varesearch.com To: kfogel@red-bean.com cc: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com, Rob Walker Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1310 Lines: 55 Yeah, we'd be very pleased to do it. Please co-ordinate with Rob Walker to get it set up. I've cc'd him on this note. Chris -- Director of Linux Marketing - VA Research Inc. http://www.varesearch.com Vice President, Silicon Valley Linux Users Group http://www.svlug.org Webmaster & Grant Chair, Linux International. http://www.li.org On 23 Jun 1999, Karl Fogel wrote: > It may soon be necessary for the CVS home sites (www.cyclic.com, > download.cyclic.com, cvs.cyclic.com) to be hosted on new servers. Is > this be the sort of community project VA Research would be interested > in supporting (i.e., donating server space and net connection)? We're > looking at several options right now, and you're one of them. :-) > > The short explanation: Jim Kingdon , Cyclic > Software's sole proprietor, is moving on to greener pastures, so > Cyclic may soon be turning into a non-profit devoted to the > development and dissemination of CVS. Our goal is to make sure that > this transition does not disrupt CVS maintenance/development, and to > make sure that the Net addresses most users associate with CVS remain > unchanged. Even though Cyclic has officially been for-profit up till > now, http://www.cyclic.com has been more of a community resource than > a business site anyway; we'd like to see it stay that way. > > So, we're talking about roughly 10G/month bandwidth, from: > > - a web site > - a ftp site > - the master CVS repository (both commit & read-only access) > - various mailing lists > - a GNATS bug database > > I'm not sure yet of the exact disk footprint of all the above; looking > at some of the other sites you host, I think this one would be nearer > the small end, though. :-) > > Also, does only VA have root access when you do sites like this, > or...? (I'm just trying to figure out the maintenance overhead of > this option for us.) > > Jim Kingdon is busy worrying about other aspects of the transition > right now, which is why it's me writing this not him :-). (By the > way, I'm not sure how public Jim wants this news to be, so I guess > keep it as confidential as you can unless he says it's okay to spread > it around.) Anyway, he is on the CC list of this mail, so do > follow-up not reply. > > Thanks for your time, > -Karl Fogel > From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:25 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 12:18:05 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA27009 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:18:00 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:18:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA13064; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:53:48 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10226 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:51:03 -0400 Received: from oxygen.su.varesearch.com (gw.varesearch.com [209.81.8.2]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10222; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:51:01 -0400 Received: from hydrogen.su.varesearch.com ([10.1.0.1] helo=yttrium.su.varesearch.com) by oxygen.su.varesearch.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #6) id 10woMd-0002NG-00; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by yttrium.su.varesearch.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07285; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: yttrium.su.varesearch.com: chris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris DiBona X-Sender: chris@yttrium.su.varesearch.com To: kfogel@red-bean.com cc: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1311 Lines: 54 Also, rob will answer the technical policy questions posed below. Chris -- Director of Linux Marketing - VA Research Inc. http://www.varesearch.com Vice President, Silicon Valley Linux Users Group http://www.svlug.org Webmaster & Grant Chair, Linux International. http://www.li.org On 23 Jun 1999, Karl Fogel wrote: > It may soon be necessary for the CVS home sites (www.cyclic.com, > download.cyclic.com, cvs.cyclic.com) to be hosted on new servers. Is > this be the sort of community project VA Research would be interested > in supporting (i.e., donating server space and net connection)? We're > looking at several options right now, and you're one of them. :-) > > The short explanation: Jim Kingdon , Cyclic > Software's sole proprietor, is moving on to greener pastures, so > Cyclic may soon be turning into a non-profit devoted to the > development and dissemination of CVS. Our goal is to make sure that > this transition does not disrupt CVS maintenance/development, and to > make sure that the Net addresses most users associate with CVS remain > unchanged. Even though Cyclic has officially been for-profit up till > now, http://www.cyclic.com has been more of a community resource than > a business site anyway; we'd like to see it stay that way. > > So, we're talking about roughly 10G/month bandwidth, from: > > - a web site > - a ftp site > - the master CVS repository (both commit & read-only access) > - various mailing lists > - a GNATS bug database > > I'm not sure yet of the exact disk footprint of all the above; looking > at some of the other sites you host, I think this one would be nearer > the small end, though. :-) > > Also, does only VA have root access when you do sites like this, > or...? (I'm just trying to figure out the maintenance overhead of > this option for us.) > > Jim Kingdon is busy worrying about other aspects of the transition > right now, which is why it's me writing this not him :-). (By the > way, I'm not sure how public Jim wants this news to be, so I guess > keep it as confidential as you can unless he says it's okay to spread > it around.) Anyway, he is on the CC list of this mail, so do > follow-up not reply. > > Thanks for your time, > -Karl Fogel > From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:25 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 13:36:05 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA27104 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:35:54 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:36:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13533; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:12:36 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10949 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:09:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from floss.red-bean.com (floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10945; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:09:38 -0400 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA27065; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:10:41 -0500 To: Rob Walker Cc: kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? References: Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: where editing text is like playing Paganini on a glass harmonica. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 13:10:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: Chris DiBona's message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:50:59 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1316 Lines: 61 Chris DiBona wrote: > Also, rob will answer the technical policy questions posed below. Hello, Rob. The policy questions Chris refers to can be summed up as: would we have root access on the server? It makes administration so much easier that it is a factor in our decision about where to host. The "we", by the way, is a consortium of present and former CVS developers & people concerned with the stability of CVS. We will be organized in a some formal manner, so you will be dealing with a non-fuzzy entity :-) (i.e., there will be a written constitution, a list of who's involved, and possibly we'll be legally organized as a non-profit). However, we have only recently sprung into action, spurred by the news of Jim Kingdon's departure from Cyclic Software, so those formalities haven't happened yet. Here's our original message to Chris, for reference: > > It may soon be necessary for the CVS home sites (www.cyclic.com, > > download.cyclic.com, cvs.cyclic.com) to be hosted on new servers. Is > > this be the sort of community project VA Research would be interested > > in supporting (i.e., donating server space and net connection)? We're > > looking at several options right now, and you're one of them. :-) > > > > The short explanation: Jim Kingdon , Cyclic > > Software's sole proprietor, is moving on to greener pastures, so > > Cyclic may soon be turning into a non-profit devoted to the > > development and dissemination of CVS. Our goal is to make sure that > > this transition does not disrupt CVS maintenance/development, and to > > make sure that the Net addresses most users associate with CVS remain > > unchanged. Even though Cyclic has officially been for-profit up till > > now, http://www.cyclic.com has been more of a community resource than > > a business site anyway; we'd like to see it stay that way. > > > > So, we're talking about roughly 10G/month bandwidth, from: > > > > - a web site > > - a ftp site > > - the master CVS repository (both commit & read-only access) > > - various mailing lists > > - a GNATS bug database > > > > I'm not sure yet of the exact disk footprint of all the above; looking > > at some of the other sites you host, I think this one would be nearer > > the small end, though. :-) > > > > Also, does only VA have root access when you do sites like this, > > or...? (I'm just trying to figure out the maintenance overhead of > > this option for us.) > > > > Jim Kingdon is busy worrying about other aspects of the transition > > right now, which is why it's me writing this not him :-). (By the > > way, I'm not sure how public Jim wants this news to be, so I guess > > keep it as confidential as you can unless he says it's okay to spread > > it around.) Anyway, he is on the CC list of this mail, so do > > follow-up not reply. > > > > Thanks for your time, > > -Karl Fogel > > From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:26 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 14:34:08 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA27137 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:34:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:34:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13633; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:38:39 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11013 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:35:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from oxygen.su.varesearch.com (gw.varesearch.com [209.81.8.2]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11009; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:35:48 -0400 Received: from hydrogen.su.varesearch.com ([10.1.0.1] helo=tungsten.su.varesearch.com) by oxygen.su.varesearch.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #6) id 10wrs2-0005Kl-00; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:35:38 -0700 Received: (from rob@localhost) by tungsten.su.varesearch.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17479; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:35:37 -0700 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:35:37 -0700 (PDT) To: kfogel@red-bean.com, joseph@varesearch.com Cc: rob@varesearch.com, kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14193.9017.63667.473572@tungsten.su.varesearch.com> Reply-To: rob@varesearch.com X-PGP-Fingerprint: CD 3B D7 01 69 A1 DD E3 3E 69 11 23 6D 8E A2 6A Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1317 Lines: 55 [ please let us know as soon as we can send this to the opn-admin list, so that it can get into the archives of our list, which are open. i have added joe here at VA to the To: line, so that he can see what we are talking about. ] karl, The most up-to-date answer we have for you is at http://www.on.openprojects.net/index2.html and more accurately at http://www.on.openprojects.net/provides.html I will try to quickly answer some of your points below. >>>>> On 23 Jun 1999 13:10:39 -0500, Karl Fogel >>>>> said: Karl> Chris DiBona wrote: Karl> Hello, Rob. The policy questions Chris refers to can be summed Karl> up as: would we have root access on the server? It makes no. explanations follow. read http://www.on.openprojects.net/provides.html right here to get a complete picture. Karl> administration so much easier that it is a factor in our Karl> decision about where to host. If this ("having root makes administration so much easier, and might affect where we end up" to paraphrase) is true, and I have no doubt that it has been true for you in the past, then that means that we are not doing our jobs right. We want to do our jobs right. Currently the entire admin staff is volunteers, but we have one person who is paid part time to work on this, and another one who will be full time in a week or so. Karl> The "we", by the way, is a consortium of present and former CVS Karl> developers & people concerned with the stability of CVS. We great! >> - a web site >> - a ftp site >> - the master CVS repository (both commit & read-only access) >> - various mailing lists >> - a GNATS bug database everything but the gnats db we do right now. we have more people who want bugzilla right now than gnats, so we will probably get the gnats server set up second. With these two new people to come in and take some of the load off, this might happen quickly. rob From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:26 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Wed Jun 23 20:54:30 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA27481 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:54:26 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:54:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA15115; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:43:54 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05055 for cyclic-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:41:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05025; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:41:06 -0400 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:40:41 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: rob@varesearch.com CC: kfogel@red-bean.com, joseph@varesearch.com, rob@varesearch.com, kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com In-reply-to: <14193.9017.63667.473572@tungsten.su.varesearch.com> (message from Rob Walker on Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:35:37 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:40:41 -0400 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1323 Lines: 33 If this ("having root makes administration so much easier, and might affect where we end up" to paraphrase) is true, and I have no doubt that it has been true for you in the past, then that means that we are not doing our jobs right. We want to do our jobs right. Currently the entire admin staff is volunteers, but we have one person who is paid part time to work on this, and another one who will be full time in a week or so. There are cases I've encountered where it is desireable set up something which is fairly complex, where it is *much* easier to try lots of things yourself if you have root access until you figure it out than to try to send email explaining to the sysadmin what to do. Now, if most projects are on the same machine, that is understandable. Since I'm one of the people who helps with running gnudist.gnu.org, I hadn't realized that VA was putting lots of different projects on a single machine. Has VA considered whether it might make sense to get a lot of less studly machines rather than a single impressive machine? (I realize that administrating N machines requires approximately N times as much work as administrating one machine...) everything but the gnats db we do right now. we have more people who want bugzilla right now than gnats, so we will probably get the gnats server set up second. With these two new people to come in and take some of the load off, this might happen quickly. The above paragraph is a perfect example of why it could be good to give the CVS developers root access. It sounds like the CVS developers might be able to cause gnats to be set up faster than the VA staff. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:26 1999 X-From-Line: kfogel@floss.onshore.com Thu Jun 24 03:00:23 1999 >From kfogel Thu Jun 24 03:00:23 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA27711 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:00:18 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:00:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15203 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:00:35 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA27498; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:59:43 -0500 To: rob@varesearch.com, joseph@varesearch.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? References: Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: the cutting edge of obsolescence. From: Karl Fogel Date: 23 Jun 1999 20:59:43 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Joel N. Weber II"'s message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:40:41 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1324 Lines: 42 I'm sending this email mainly to redirect this thread's recipient lists to ccp@red-bean.com, the mailing list for The CVS Continuity Project. Rob, Joseph, see also http://www.red-bean.com/ccp.html for further information (although I think you probably already know everything there). Joel's point below is well made; I have nothing to add. "Joel N. Weber II" writes: > If this ("having root makes administration so much easier, and might > affect where we end up" to paraphrase) is true, and I have no doubt > that it has been true for you in the past, then that means that we are > not doing our jobs right. We want to do our jobs right. Currently > the entire admin staff is volunteers, but we have one person who is > paid part time to work on this, and another one who will be full time > in a week or so. > > There are cases I've encountered where it is desireable set up > something which is fairly complex, where it is *much* easier to try > lots of things yourself if you have root access until you figure it > out than to try to send email explaining to the sysadmin what to do. > > Now, if most projects are on the same machine, that is understandable. > Since I'm one of the people who helps with running gnudist.gnu.org, I > hadn't realized that VA was putting lots of different projects on a > single machine. > > Has VA considered whether it might make sense to get a lot of less > studly machines rather than a single impressive machine? (I realize > that administrating N machines requires approximately N times as much > work as administrating one machine...) > > everything but the gnats db we do right now. we have more people who > want bugzilla right now than gnats, so we will probably get the gnats > server set up second. With these two new people to come in and take > some of the load off, this might happen quickly. > > The above paragraph is a perfect example of why it could be good to > give the CVS developers root access. It sounds like the CVS > developers might be able to cause gnats to be set up faster than the > VA staff. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:28 1999 X-From-Line: rob@varesearch.com Thu Jun 24 03:01:39 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA27734 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:01:30 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:01:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from oxygen.su.varesearch.com (gw.varesearch.com [209.81.8.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA15347; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:14:35 -0500 Received: from hydrogen.su.varesearch.com ([10.1.0.1] helo=tungsten.su.varesearch.com) by oxygen.su.varesearch.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #6) id 10wzvS-0000uu-00; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:11:42 -0700 Received: (from rob@localhost) by tungsten.su.varesearch.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18791; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:11:38 -0700 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:11:38 -0700 (PDT) To: nemo@red-bean.com Cc: rob@varesearch.com, kfogel@red-bean.com, joseph@varesearch.com, kingdon@cyclic.com, justin@master.debian.org, cooks@red-bean.com, cyclic@cyclic.com Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? In-Reply-To: References: <14193.9017.63667.473572@tungsten.su.varesearch.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14193.39628.774916.511728@tungsten.su.varesearch.com> Reply-To: rob@varesearch.com X-PGP-Fingerprint: CD 3B D7 01 69 A1 DD E3 3E 69 11 23 6D 8E A2 6A Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1325 Lines: 89 hello joel, good to hear from you again. >>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:40:41 -0400, "Joel N. Weber II" >>>>> said: Joel> There are cases I've encountered where it is desireable set up Joel> something which is fairly complex, where it is *much* easier to Joel> try lots of things yourself if you have root access until you Joel> figure it out than to try to send email explaining to the Joel> sysadmin what to do. this is true, where someone wants to do complex and exciting things. it is our hope and desire that your complex and exciting things are your projects, not the tools used to maintain your projects. we would almost desire that these tools and their accompanying administration and setup is just as commonplace as cookstoves. learn new and exciting ways to cook food, not how to build cookstoves. :-) however, complex and exciting things are exactly _not_ what we are trying to do. If you need a wok, we probably won't make be able to make one at this time. our wok makers are not set up yet. we are hiring some, but they are still getting their background checks done. if your new and exciting food requires a wok, well, then, it looks like we can't service you as well as we could if it didn't. we have to scale it somewhere. we noticed that the different projects were not scaling with their own sysadmins, and we also know that we can't scale the same amount of sysadmin work that each project would bring to bear on their own flavor of internet hosting. Joel> Now, if most projects are on the same machine, that is Joel> understandable. Since I'm one of the people who helps with Joel> running gnudist.gnu.org, I hadn't realized that VA was putting Joel> lots of different projects on a single machine. yes. when rms said (paraphrasing) "no ssh, must have telnet. must have no non-free software on machine", that immediately earned him a number of things which makes it harder for me to help that project and that box. 1. i am not the admin, will barely accept the responsibility of root access. 2. i will help out with problems, but it is much lower on my priority list. 3. i don't help on cleanups after breakins. 4. I am about ready to put people like this on their own VLAN (broadcast domain, subnet, ethernet interface, whatever), so that their security lapses don't cause my logs to fill up. 5. my hands are way way off. do i sound snippy about it? okay, i suppose i do. that is okay. please read the second url that i posted for more reasons why. Joel> Has VA considered whether it might make sense to get a lot of Joel> less studly machines rather than a single impressive machine? we will be doing this. hardware is not something we lack, either in big box size or in little box size. however, either way, we need to have things be scalable all around, even if this doesn't give the most flexibility to the different groups. for just this reason, i have everyone's web stuff in /data/{org,net,com}//{www,mail,ftp(which is a symlink to /home/ftp/}. I don't let them write to their own httpd.conf and access.conf files, which are in their www directories, as they are included into the main one, and can foul up the whole works with a mistake in either of those files. the other benefit is that we can move groups easily to new machines on new networks as the need arises. as long as the group continues to log in to www.mesa3d.org, they won't have too much of a problem, except the ssh identity changing. Joel> (I realize that administrating N machines requires approximately Joel> N times as much work as administrating one machine...) Joel> The above paragraph is a perfect example of why it could be good Joel> to give the CVS developers root access. It sounds like the CVS Joel> developers might be able to cause gnats to be set up faster than Joel> the VA staff. yes. if what we have doesn't work, it doesn't work. we would like it to, but at this moment, it is not a good match. this is not to say that we can't put a machine up for you to work on and use, but re-read the above points about gnudist. rob ps. is there any reason why this can't be hosted on gnudist? could gnudist benefit from the extra admin help? is there anything which cyclic needs to have which is against the beliefs of some of gnudists' users? From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:30 1999 X-From-Line: ian@airs.com Thu Jun 24 03:02:54 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA27756 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:02:51 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:02:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA15603 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:34:50 -0500 Received: (qmail 5655 invoked by uid 4); 24 Jun 1999 06:32:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 15844 invoked by uid 269); 24 Jun 1999 06:31:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19990624063135.15843.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 24 Jun 1999 02:31:35 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Continuing CVS Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1326 Lines: 49 I am interested in the discussion about continuing CVS. I spoke with Jason Molenda at Cygnus. I believe we can put the CVS sources on the sourceware.cygnus.com site. I think that would be a fairly natural place for CVS, as several other free software infrastructure programs are there, notably egcs/gcc3. I do think that in order for CVS to succeed we will need to find an active maintainer who will work to integrate net patches. The bottom of the CCP web page says Plus, we assume by default that all the current CVS developers are interested in these proceedings. However, we're not able to put them on the mailing list because we don't have all their individual addresses, and only they are able to send to the developers mailing list. The CVS developers are listed on http://www.cyclic.com/cvs/dev-people.html Here they are with some perhaps up-to-date e-mail addresses: Ian Lance Taylor Jim Kingdon Noel Cragg Jim Meyering Larry Jones Norbert Kiesel Ben Lee Del Delson Peter Wemm Paul Eggert Greg A. Woods Roland McGrath Tom Tromey Nate Williams --dunno who this is Retired: JT Conklin Sam Tardieu Jim Blandy Karl Fogel Ian From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:31 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 19:47:13 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28671 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:47:12 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:47:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15855; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:33:54 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA11992 for cyclic-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:31:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@sanpietro.red-bean.com [206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA11988; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:31:06 -0400 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15848 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:33:32 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA27778; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:30:34 -0500 To: Ian Lance Taylor Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Continuing CVS References: <19990624063135.15843.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: the Swiss Army of Editors. From: Karl Fogel Date: 24 Jun 1999 03:30:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: Ian Lance Taylor's message of "24 Jun 1999 02:31:35 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1332 Lines: 51 Ian Lance Taylor writes: > I am interested in the discussion about continuing CVS. Great! You're on the list now. None of the other current developers are on it yet, except JimK, because they haven't asked to be. I'm assuming that since JimK notified devel-cvs about this project, that any of them who want to take part in the discussions will speak up. > I spoke with Jason Molenda at Cygnus. I believe we can put the CVS > sources on the sourceware.cygnus.com site. I think that would be a > fairly natural place for CVS, as several other free software > infrastructure programs are there, notably egcs/gcc3. Ahh, good news (more options == good news :-) ), thanks. IMHO, sometime early next week it would be good to take a vote on which of the several options now open is best. A little more thought & debate between now and then will help, though. Just to summarize, right now we have: Cygnus (probably good box; root access unknown?) VA Research (good box; no root access) ITF (decent box; somewhat less-than-decent connection; root) Red Bean (bad box, but can be improved; connection fairly good; root) Personally, I think Red Bean and ITF look like the weakest of these, but they do have the advantage of root-ness. What's the situation with root access on sourceware.cygnus.com? > I do think that in order for CVS to succeed we will need to find an > active maintainer who will work to integrate net patches. I get the feeling we all agree on that (I know I do). However, that topic is not necessarily related to this initial transition. I'd like to focus on getting the Cyclic repository and Web site settled somewhere, and then turn our attention to the problem of needed patches not getting integrated. I realize that to some degree I'm trying to force what I perceive to be the immediate issue (server transition) to the top of our priority list; I hope people don't mind too much. It's just that the maintainership issue has been present for a long time already, and isn't made more or less urgent by the necessity of this transition. Sure, the server move also helps focus our attention on the need for more a more pro-active maintainership... and our attention will still be there after the move is complete. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:31 1999 X-From-Line: ian@airs.com Thu Jun 24 19:48:11 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28741 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:48:09 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:48:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA16934 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:14:28 -0500 Received: (qmail 7399 invoked by uid 4); 24 Jun 1999 16:11:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 16354 invoked by uid 269); 24 Jun 1999 16:11:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19990624161111.16353.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 24 Jun 1999 12:11:11 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 24 Jun 1999 03:30:33 -0500) Subject: Re: Continuing CVS References: <19990624063135.15843.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1333 Lines: 48 From: Karl Fogel Date: 24 Jun 1999 03:30:33 -0500 Just to summarize, right now we have: Cygnus (probably good box; root access unknown?) VA Research (good box; no root access) ITF (decent box; somewhat less-than-decent connection; root) Red Bean (bad box, but can be improved; connection fairly good; root) Personally, I think Red Bean and ITF look like the weakest of these, but they do have the advantage of root-ness. What's the situation with root access on sourceware.cygnus.com? I have root access on sourceware. I doubt Jason would be inclined to give it out to others. However, I can certainly volunteer to do anything which requires root access. In practice, little should; for example, the web pages on sourceware are themselves maintained via CVS. If I want to change the binutils web pages, I just modify them in my working tree and check them in. The code on sourceware automatically stores the page in the right place for the web server to pick it up. I believe sourceware already has the required infrastructure: web pages, mailing lists, a good net connection. Moreover, Cygnus will maintain the hardware and the software infrastructure and upgrade it as needed to support the more popular projects hosted on sourceware. From: "B. W. Fitzpatrick" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:41:34 +0000 My only reason for not wanting to host at Cygnus--and you're most likely going to think that this is totally weird and petty--is that I think it will cause some *serious* name confusion between Cyclic and Cygnus: Cyclic Cygnus The names are awfully similar and I am afraid that having Cyclic hosted at Cygnus would cause problems. This I don't understand, and I feel like there is something that I am missing. What bad results will result from this name confusion? Ian From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:31 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 19:47:59 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28726 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:47:57 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:47:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA16402; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:40:21 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12319 for cyclic-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:37:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@sanpietro.red-bean.com [206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12315; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:37:34 -0400 Received: from queso.onshore.com (root@queso.onshore.com [206.69.89.34]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA16396; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:40:12 -0500 Received: from gelato.onshore.com (bwf@gelato.onshore.com [206.69.90.34]) by queso.onshore.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA13263; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:36:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> Reply-to: fitz@red-bean.com From: "B. W. Fitzpatrick" To: kfogel@red-bean.com cc: Ian Lance Taylor , ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Continuing CVS In-reply-to: Your message of "24 Jun 1999 03:30:33 EST." Emacs: is that an operating system in your editor, or are you just happy to see me? Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:41:34 +0000 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1337 Lines: 53 > IMHO, sometime early next week it would be good to take a vote on > which of the several options now open is best. A little more thought > & debate between now and then will help, though. > Just to summarize, right now we have: > Cygnus (probably good box; root access unknown?) > VA Research (good box; no root access) > ITF (decent box; somewhat less-than-decent connection; root) > Red Bean (bad box, but can be improved; connection fairly good; root) > Personally, I think Red Bean and ITF look like the weakest of these, > but they do have the advantage of root-ness. What's the situation > with root access on sourceware.cygnus.com? Well, in the case of VA Research, all the services that we need ('cept gnats) are provided, and will be tended to on a regular basis. The issue of having root on their box is moot. No root access is their policy, and we have to determine if having someone else handling the care and feeding of *.cygnus.com outweighs the disadvantage of not having root. I for one think that the VA solution would work out well. If we need gnats up and running now, then we can host the gnats db wherever until VA gets theirs up (providing that they do indeed get it up). If we determine that we really need root access, well then, let's thank VA for the kind offer and move along instead of looking the gift horse in the mouth and harassing them for not giving it out. My only reason for not wanting to host at Cygnus--and you're most likely going to think that this is totally weird and petty--is that I think it will cause some *serious* name confusion between Cyclic and Cygnus: Cyclic Cygnus The names are awfully similar and I am afraid that having Cyclic hosted at Cygnus would cause problems. As for red-bean or IFT, hosting at either place will require quite a few more resources than hosting at VA. And lastly--VA's offer seems quite generous and I'm willing to give it a shot. Remember that if after a while we are no longer happy with the way things are going there, we can move elsewhere (no offense intended to VA Research). As Karl has reiterated: we need to concentrate on the immediate solution, and once that is taken care of, we can begin to make more long term plans. -Fitz From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:31 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 19:49:03 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28795 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:02 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17698; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:54:21 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13467 for cyclic-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@sanpietro.red-bean.com [206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13463; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:35 -0400 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17692; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:54:12 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13457; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: fitz@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> (fitz@red-bean.com) Subject: Re: Continuing CVS References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 11 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1328 > My only reason for not wanting to host at Cygnus--and you're most > likely going to think that this is totally weird and petty--is that > I think it will cause some *serious* name confusion between Cyclic and > Cygnus: I can confirm, from past experience, that people tend to confuse those two names. I'll leave it to others to try to figure out whether that is a problem. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:31 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 20:25:12 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA28908 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:25:10 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:25:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA18388; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:18:56 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22887 for cyclic-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:16:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@[206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22832; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:16:09 -0400 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA18376 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:18:43 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA28892; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:17:53 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Continuing CVS References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: we've got the solution for the problem we sold you. From: Karl Fogel Date: 24 Jun 1999 20:17:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:28 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 20 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1339 Jim Kingdon writes: > > My only reason for not wanting to host at Cygnus--and you're most > > likely going to think that this is totally weird and petty--is that > > I think it will cause some *serious* name confusion between Cyclic and > > Cygnus: > > I can confirm, from past experience, that people tend to confuse those > two names. > > I'll leave it to others to try to figure out whether that is a > problem. It's no more a problem if Cyclic is hosted at Cygnus than elsewhere, since there is no reason why people would be exposed to the Cygnus namespace when they visit the Cyclic sites. And if there's a "Thank You" note on the home page, that would be more likely to have the effect of *emphasizing* that they're two different organizations, since why would Cyclic bother to thank itself? :-) From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:32 1999 X-From-Line: kfogel@floss.onshore.com Thu Jun 24 20:25:14 1999 >From kfogel Thu Jun 24 20:25:14 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA28911 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:25:13 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:25:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA18376 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:18:43 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA28892; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:17:53 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Continuing CVS References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: we've got the solution for the problem we sold you. From: Karl Fogel Date: 24 Jun 1999 20:17:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:28 -0400" Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Lines: 20 Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1340 Jim Kingdon writes: > > My only reason for not wanting to host at Cygnus--and you're most > > likely going to think that this is totally weird and petty--is that > > I think it will cause some *serious* name confusion between Cyclic and > > Cygnus: > > I can confirm, from past experience, that people tend to confuse those > two names. > > I'll leave it to others to try to figure out whether that is a > problem. It's no more a problem if Cyclic is hosted at Cygnus than elsewhere, since there is no reason why people would be exposed to the Cygnus namespace when they visit the Cyclic sites. And if there's a "Thank You" note on the home page, that would be more likely to have the effect of *emphasizing* that they're two different organizations, since why would Cyclic bother to thank itself? :-) From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:33 1999 X-From-Line: kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 19:49:04 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28798 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17692; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:54:12 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13457; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:51:28 -0400 Gnus-Warning: This is a duplicate of message <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> Message-Id: <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: fitz@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> (fitz@red-bean.com) Subject: Re: Continuing CVS References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1338 Lines: 11 > My only reason for not wanting to host at Cygnus--and you're most > likely going to think that this is totally weird and petty--is that > I think it will cause some *serious* name confusion between Cyclic and > Cygnus: I can confirm, from past experience, that people tend to confuse those two names. I'll leave it to others to try to figure out whether that is a problem. From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:34 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 19:48:06 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28735 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:48:06 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:48:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16476; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:05:10 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12394 for cyclic-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:02:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@sanpietro.red-bean.com [206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12389; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:02:22 -0400 Received: from cygnus.com (runyon.cygnus.com [205.180.230.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16467 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:05:00 -0500 Received: from dmoseley1 (dmoseley1.cygnus.com [205.226.144.30]) by runyon.cygnus.com (8.8.7-cygnus/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23606 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Drew Moseley" To: Subject: Join Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:02:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01bebe4a$20fef630$1e90e2cd@dmoseley1.cygnus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1334 Lines: 5 I would like to join this mailing list. Drew mailto: drewmoseley@mindspring.com From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:34 1999 X-From-Line: pvogel@iready.com Thu Jun 24 19:49:30 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28822 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:30 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stargate-1.ireadyco.com (stargate-1.ireadyco.com [209.140.229.68]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17842 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:43:35 -0500 Received: from gandalf (fw.chromatic.com [208.12.96.3]) by stargate-1.ireadyco.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05545 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:46:45 -0700 From: "Peter A. Vogel" To: Subject: I'm more than willing to help out with the CCP Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:40:46 -0700 Message-ID: <001501bebe92$99652d40$35e610ac@gandalf.chromatic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1335 Lines: 10 Please add me (pvogel@iready.com) to any mailing lists you have on the topic. I've been working with (and modifying/patching) CVS since 1.3 in 1995. -Peter Peter A. Vogel Configuration Manager iReady Corporation From nobody Thu Jun 24 22:46:46 1999 X-From-Line: owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com Thu Jun 24 19:49:42 1999 Received: from localhost (kfogel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA28837 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:42 -0500 Received: from localhost by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.0.1) for kfogel@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:49:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:majordomo@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA18000; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:31:40 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13776 for cyclic-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:28:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: harvey.cyclic.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cyclic@harvey.cyclic.com using -f Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com (root@[206.69.89.65]) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13772; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:28:54 -0400 Received: from hubbub.cisco.com (mailgate-sj-1.cisco.com [198.92.30.31]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17994 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:31:32 -0500 Received: from sandman.cisco.com (drich-sun.cisco.com [171.70.148.112]) by hubbub.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.2-SunOS.5.5.1.sun4/CISCO.GATE.1.1) with ESMTP id QAA14944 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandman.cisco.com (sandman.cisco.com [171.70.148.112]) by sandman.cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20677 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:28:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Rich To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: CVS Continuity Project Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-cyclic@cyclic.com Precedence: bulk Xref: floss.red-bean.com mail.cyclic:1336 Lines: 14 Since I have a rather large concern that CVS remains a viable solution for revision control (we are just rolling it out for use for both our internet and intranet web sites), I'm interested in becoming involved. Besides, this way Jim will stop bugging me about suporting CVS! :) -- Dan Rich | http://www.employees.org/~drich/ Tech. Lead, Web Infr. Team | "Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!" Cisco Systems, Inc. | "No, but the first of you turns my stomach!" (408) 527-3195 | -- The Firesign Theatre's Nick Danger Friends of Randal Schwartz: http://www.lightlink.com/fors/ From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jun 24 22:52:51 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA19132 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:52:49 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA29085; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:52:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:52:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199906250352.WAA29085@floss.red-bean.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: testing new archiving, please ignore Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: I'm not laughing anymore. This list is archived now, I'm just testing to make sure it works. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jun 24 22:58:57 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA19218; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:58:56 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:55:53 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: Ian Lance Taylor CC: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990625030532.6581.qmail@daffy.airs.com> (message from Ian Lance Taylor on 24 Jun 1999 23:05:32 -0400) Subject: Re: Continuing CVS Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:55:53 -0400 2) Someone who's hacking on a guilized emacs decided to use melange.gnu.org instead of sourceware due to a lack of disk space on sourceware. Sourceware is not intended for any random free software project. It's mainly intended for projects supported by Cygnus engineers. However, CVS is such basic infrastructure that it is something of a special case, and I've already gotten permission to host it there. The individual doing the guilized emacs used to work for Cygnus. Additionally, given that it was guile related, and I think all the guile stuff lived on that machine, it seemed that that would be another reason why it would be sensible for it to live on sourceware. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 02:34:34 1999 Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA19500 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 02:34:34 -0500 Received: (qmail 4691 invoked by uid 1246); 25 Jun 1999 07:31:50 -0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 02:31:50 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: hosting issues Message-ID: <19990625023150.B29190@master.debian.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i X-Illuminati: You are not reading this considering all 4 options (cygnus, red-bean, ift, va) all have their various weakness, i've come up with an idea. i mentioned something like this might be something to consider, but i think karl said it probably wasn't a good idea. but consider this: IFT can host web+cvs+mail+ftp on one machine, a p2 350/17gb/256mb. it is on decent connection (i've been known to pull over 150kb/s over it, sustained), but i cannot use *too* much of the bandwidth, since it is the schools. also, it is firewalled, but considering ports 80, both ftp ports, mail (actually on a separate machine, but 25 is unblocked). also, cvs is supposed to be opened, but i've been having trouble with it lately. of course, we also can tunnel anything over ssh (which might be a good idea, anyway). this can be for developers, and then VA can have a direct line in to mirror everything out to the world. it's not the most ideal situation, but i don't think it's really that bad, either. thoughts? i know it'll probably get shot down, but who knows...:) -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 03:42:08 1999 Received: from mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (nz40.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.197.4]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA19564 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 03:41:50 -0500 Received: from gmx.de (isdn216-42.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.216.42]) by mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp (Exim 2.04 #3) id 10xRVH-0003m4-00; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:38:32 +0200 Sender: tnagel@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Message-ID: <37733FD8.53E8A405@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:37:44 +0200 From: Thomas Nagel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.9-19mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: CCP - Help needed? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am very much interested in helping out especially in designing an maintainig webpages and writing documentation (if you need help in that sector). If you won't find Webspace I may find some ( I am working for an ISP ). Bye -- Thomas Nagel Lessingstrasse 47 76135 Karlsruhe Email: Thomas.Nagel@gmx.de Tel.: 0721 - 844406 Web: http://www.tomspage.de From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 09:34:31 1999 Received: from mout00.kundenserver.de (mout00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.69]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA20110 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:34:30 -0500 Received: from [195.20.224.67] (helo=mx00.kundenserver.de) by mout00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10xX18-0007TZ-00 for ccp@red-bean.com; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:31:46 +0200 Received: from [172.17.0.29] (helo=alibaba.schlund.de) by mx00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10xWip-0008L0-00 for ccp@red-bean.com; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:12:51 +0200 Received: from tnagel by alibaba.schlund.de with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10xWjZ-0000JT-00 for ccp@red-bean.com; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:13:37 +0200 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:13:37 +0200 From: Thomas Nagel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: CVS -> Service Hosting Needed? Message-ID: <19990625161337.E689@schlund.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Organisation: Schlund + Partner AG Sender: Thomas Nagel Hi everybody, I currently work for one of the biggest ISPs in Germany. Due to the fact, that we are solely using Linux for our servers we are running several linux-open-source servers as some kind of a thanx to the linux community. Our developers and system administrators (including me) use CVS. Because of this we may host all the services that Cyclic currently runs, including Mailing lists, webserver, pserver, database (if needed), maintaining ... If you are interested in this, please drop me a line. Regards -- Thomas B. Nagel Systemadministration Schlund + Partner AG mailto:Thomas.Nagel@Schlund.de Erbprinzenstr.1 Telefon (0721) 91374-50 76133 Karlsruhe Telefax (0721) 91374-20 http://www.schlund.de From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 12:15:35 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20495 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:15:33 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA29992; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:14:45 -0500 To: Justin Maurer Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: hosting issues References: <19990625023150.B29190@master.debian.org> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: with our software, there's no limit to what you can't do! From: Karl Fogel Date: 25 Jun 1999 12:14:45 -0500 In-Reply-To: Justin Maurer's message of "Fri, 25 Jun 1999 02:31:50 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Justin Maurer writes: > thoughts? i know it'll probably get shot down, but who knows...:) Well, since you predicted it, I'll come right out and say it :-)... I think this is not a good option. The fact that it is "the school's" machine is enough reason not to put stuff there, IMHO. They have no obligation to cooperate, or even to maintain that machine on the network at all. They're not primarily in the business of supporting free software, and indeed their governing members may never even have heard of such a thing. If we're going to depend on charity, we should make sure that the donating organization knows what it's doing and why, from the top down. Even if some comp sci professor at the school promises to help out, the machine and network aren't really his to give out like that, and the decision might be overruled or reversed at any time from on high. Ick. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 12:17:50 1999 Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA20525 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:17:49 -0500 Received: (qmail 1787 invoked by uid 1246); 25 Jun 1999 17:15:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:15:06 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: hosting issues Message-ID: <19990625121506.A26054@master.debian.org> References: <19990625023150.B29190@master.debian.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Fogel on Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 12:14:45PM -0500 X-Illuminati: You are not reading this > > thoughts? i know it'll probably get shot down, but who knows...:) > > Well, since you predicted it, I'll come right out and say it :-)... I > think this is not a good option. not to be blunt or anything, but ok. -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 12:38:38 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA20646 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:38:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 14894 invoked by uid 4); 25 Jun 1999 17:35:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 7365 invoked by uid 269); 25 Jun 1999 17:35:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19990625173538.7364.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 25 Jun 1999 13:35:38 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Cyclic on slashdot Cyclic's departure from the CVS support business just hit Slashdot: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/06/25/1711204 I started to post a note there about the CVS Continuity Project but then I thought better of it. Still, somebody may, probably to be immediately followed by lots of mail messages and half-baked offers. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 12:50:46 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20697 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:50:39 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14851; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:47:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:47:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199906251747.NAA14851@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ian@airs.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990625173538.7364.qmail@daffy.airs.com> (message from Ian Lance Taylor on 25 Jun 1999 13:35:38 -0400) Subject: Re: Cyclic on slashdot References: <19990625173538.7364.qmail@daffy.airs.com> > Cyclic's departure from the CVS support business just hit Slashdot: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/06/25/1711204 Wow. Linux Weekly News too. Thanks for the heads-up. I was particularly amused by the following slashdot comment: Let's Flame RedHat! (Score:1) by the red pen on Friday June 25, @01:32PM EDT (#4) (User Info) This is just more proof that RedHat is every bit as evil as Microsoft! How dare they hire programmers. Or something. C'mon guys, help me out here. > I started to post a note there about the CVS Continuity Project but > then I thought better of it. Still, somebody may, probably to be > immediately followed by lots of mail messages and half-baked offers. If people write me (info@cyclic.com, usually), I send them the web address for the CVS Continuity Project, often with some kind of quick reaction about what the deal is with the specific thing they are offering. I'm not sure that I expect a huge number of mail messages based on the slashdot listing. At least, it has been up for something like 10 minutes with none yet. I'll know within the next few hours :-). Anyway, I should be starting my new job rather than getting distracted by this stuff... From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 13:53:15 1999 Received: from cp.net (IDENT:root@puerco-del-diablo.eng.cp.net [209.228.9.46]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20860 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:53:13 -0500 Received: (from noah@localhost) by cp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18035; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:50:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Noah Friedman To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Continuing CVS Reply-To: Noah Friedman In-Reply-To: ian@airs.com , 24 Jun 1999 02:31:35 -0400 References: <19990624063135.15843.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <19990625115022.900191.FMU855@puerco-del-diablo.eng.cp.net> [Hi, I just got added to this list.] I've also spoken with mozilla.org about hosting CVS sources, and they've agreed that they would be willing to do so. In addition to having very good network connectivity and high-capacity equipment (I put those systems together), a number of development tools are already in place, such as bonsai (visual annotated change viewer), lxr (search engine), and bugzilla (bug tracking). These tools would be available as well. You can try them out on the mozilla source tree now without needing any accounts, if you want to see how they work. Access to the repositories are implemented via a web-based system where new cvs accounts can be created. They are a little more cautious with granting shell accounts (and especially with giving root access) on the machines but it depends on the need. They have tried to make as much administration as possible doable over web-based interfaces, but of course sometimes mucking with the repository directly is required. As long as they trust the inviduals in question, I don't think that would be a problem. I've known some of the people on this list for many years, and I'd vouch for them. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 14:09:11 1999 Received: from ns.mt.sri.com ([206.127.79.91]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20973 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:09:10 -0500 Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA15143 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:06:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA14050; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:06:11 -0600 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:06:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199906251906.NAA14050@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Interested in joining the discussion X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Since I've committed my company and a lot of resources towards CVS, I'm very much interested in the discussion about CVS/Cyclic's future. Can you add me to the mailing list which discusses this? Thanks! Nate From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 15:53:58 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA21266 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:53:57 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA07799; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:51:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:51:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199906252051.PAA07799@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: administrative note (just to you know...) Reply-To: kfogel@onshore.com Emacs: a learning curve you can use as a plumb line. I've been manually updating the mailing list and web page (where users are listed); I can't always do this from work, so will catch up when I get home tonight. So that's why there's often a delay in responding to mails from people wanting to join. If someone on Red Bean feels like handling some of the requests, that's fine; just update /etc/mail/lists/ccp and /home/www/html/ccp.html for each new user, and let me know privately so I don't duplicate the work later. Yes, ideally this would be automated. No, it's not yet. I may do that this weekend, though. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 17:13:21 1999 Received: from delmar.durak.org (IDENT:qmailr@dt0f0n7f.san.rr.com [204.210.39.127]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA21587 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:13:20 -0500 Received: (qmail 5482 invoked from network); 25 Jun 1999 22:10:21 -0000 Received: from dt0f0n7f.san.rr.com (HELO savvysearch.com) (sean@204.210.39.127) by dt0f0n7f.san.rr.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 22:10:21 -0000 Sender: sean@red-bean.com Message-ID: <3773FE4D.F173E2E3@savvysearch.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:10:21 -0700 From: sean dreilinger Organization: savvysearch limited - http://www.savvysearch.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.10-ac1 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: cvs continuity - please let me help! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not sure if this is a listserv or an alias to karl - please let me help. i sent an offer to help to jim kingdon a few days ago, i can cc: it here if appropriate. --sean :-) -- mailto:sean@savvysearch.com sean dreilinger, mlis http://www.savvysearch.com http://durak.org/sean From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 18:54:17 1999 Received: from pulsar.neptune.net (IDENT:bryce@pulsar.neptune.net [204.107.103.12]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA21955 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:54:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (bryce@localhost) by pulsar.neptune.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08311 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:51:18 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:51:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryce Harrington To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: CVS Website Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, The project I'm working on (www.WorldForge.org) makes good use of CVS, and in the interest of helping another project, I'd like to offer another tool we've found to be a very handy adjunct to CVS, a dynamic (and free/open source) web cgi called "Wiki". First, the technical details: Wiki can be found at kehei.com (among other places), is written in Perl, and seems to do best with Apache (although it works okay with other web servers). Wiki permits editing of pages in the site directly through the web browser (via a cgi form's edit box). Editing accounts can be very stringently controlled via web authentication-style user accounts. You can hand out ability to edit pages on page-by-page, area-by-area, or site-wide basis. Maintainers of a given page can open access to it to other users. One of the nicest benefits of Wiki is that it decouples template from text. E.g., when a page is viewed, the wiki.cgi program loads up the appropriate template and inserts the page text into it. This serves two purposes: First, it clears the messiest parts of the webpage out of the content-developer's way. Second, it provides a one-stop location for the webmaster to update the template. This way, you can ensure that all of the pages on the site follow the same layout (menubar across the top, link bar down the right, whatever). :-) Yes, you can link Wiki and CVS, too (or at least, we're in the process of setting this gateway up right now). This permits people to submit batch changes to the website (important for our European team members who don't like staying online for long periods of time, or for people who do webwork offline and just want to upload it, or for people who just prefer the CVS interface.) Now, for the non-technical aspects: Wiki makes creating and updating webpages almost as easy as writing an email (assuming, of course, a rudimentary knowledge of HTML). This means that pages get updated more frequently, and more detail tends to "stick". As well, because one can hand out authorization for pages at such a fine level of detail, it gets your webmaster clean out of the content business (where he/she doesn't belong in the first place), removes much of the need for handing out shell accounts, and essentially turns the whole team into (potential) web-writers. Anyway, if this sounds like something you might be interested in, I'd be happy to answer any questions about it, and if you'd like, help set it up. We don't develop wiki, but we've got some experience at installing and using it. Here are our wiki user docs: http://www.worldforge.org/website/tools/wikihelp/ (Here's another site done in wiki: http://mozilla.devel.org/) [Btw, I'm not (yet) on the mailing list, so please email me directly (or as a CC or whatnot)] -- Bryce Harrington bryce @ neptune.net From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 23:52:39 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA23908 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 23:52:36 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA30440; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 23:51:49 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: ian@airs.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Cyclic on slashdot References: <19990625173538.7364.qmail@daffy.airs.com> <199906251747.NAA14851@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: the definitive fritterware. From: Karl Fogel Date: 25 Jun 1999 23:51:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:47:09 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Jim Kingdon writes (and quotes): > > I started to post a note there about the CVS Continuity Project but > > then I thought better of it. Still, somebody may, probably to be > > immediately followed by lots of mail messages and half-baked offers. I did eventually take a deep breath and post something about the CCP there; we can't claim to be a community project if we don't let the community know we exist. (I hereby declare arguments about whether Slashdot is "the community" to be off-topic. :-) ). However, I made some scripts to automate the adding of new people, that should make it bearable. > Anyway, I should be starting my new job rather than getting distracted > by this stuff... That's what we're here for... :-) From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jun 25 23:56:00 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA23932 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 23:55:58 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA30449; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 23:54:44 -0500 To: Nate Williams Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Interested in joining the discussion References: <199906251906.NAA14050@mt.sri.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: garbage at your fingertips. From: Karl Fogel Date: 25 Jun 1999 23:54:43 -0500 In-Reply-To: Nate Williams's message of "Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:06:11 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Nate Williams writes: > Since I've committed my company and a lot of resources towards CVS, I'm > very much interested in the discussion about CVS/Cyclic's future. > > Can you add me to the mailing list which discusses this? Done. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 01:34:50 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA24220 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:45 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA30516; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: thoughts on hosting Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: no job too big... no job. Okay, I've just gotten done processing the recent slew of requests to join the mailing list (whew), now back to the matter at hand... I'd like to sum up our hosting options, and then offer my own opinions on those options. We have offers, all of them firm (I think), from: [company] [what they do] [our contact there] --------------------------------------------------------------- Cygnus Systems Software Ian Taylor Mozilla Software Noah Friedman Schlund ISP Thomas Nagel VA Research Hardware Rob Walker IFT Software (non-profit) Justin Maurer Red Bean Software, mostly Everyone To summarize my current thinking: "VA Research". :-) Now here are my justifications... First of all, any one of these solutions would be good. Some are better than others, but I'd like to emphasize that *any* of them would be more than acceptable, if the rest were for some reason unavailable. Now, on to the juicy part: As I've said in past posts, IFT and Red Bean are probably our weakest options. IFT (http://linux.hypnotic.org) is small right now and doesn't have huge technical resources; Red Bean is larger and has a decent connection, but it might need a buy new machine to handle the Cyclic load, and also occasionally it has to change ISPs (resulting in chaos that's tolerable for Red Bean members, but would be less tolerable to CVS users and developers). The only real advantages of IFT and Red Bean are that we'd definitely get root access. Anyway, that leaves the upper four. Schlund (http://www.schlund.de) I know nothing about, beyond the fact that Thomas Nagel made a very generous offer to host us. Because I don't have any personal experience with it, I can't form much of an opinion. If other people know anything about Schlund, please post. In the meantime, we have Cygnus, Mozilla, and VA Research remaining. Cygnus and Mozilla are both software companies; they have a lot of hackish people with strong technical opinions. I'm a little bit afraid that they would be tempted to confuse "hosting the Cyclic resources" with "being the maintainers of CVS". I know from personal experience that many, many people have trouble distinguishing the hosting company from the developer group. In fact, this confusion was a fairly common theme among some of the early hosting offers I saw (just before the CCP list was officially started). It's a very easy and understandable mistake to make... so imagine how much *easier* it would to fall into that trap when one also may have a technical agenda in mind for CVS development. The CVS maintenance process is stable right now, and anyway is open to change through well-established procedures. So I think we would be wise to avoid situations where someone might be tempted to try and change things through procedures other than the established ones. By the way, *none* of this should be taken to impunge Ian's or Noah's motives in offering server space. Their commitment to CVS and the free software community is well known. However, neither of them owns more than 50% of their respective companies. :-) In the case of Mozilla, I'm also worried because they (Netscape) are not really making money yet. If things start to get really tight over there, our donated server space might be endangered. That leaves VA Research. VA is primarily a hardware/OS company, and is doing very well financially (is growing, in fact). They help host the Free Software Foundation and the Debian Project -- two good endorsements, I think. Also, we have some people in the CCP who have direct experience with them: mostly, though not entirely, they have positive things to say. VA is currently adding staff to help administrate their community sites, too, which I take as a good sign. The only real problem with VA Research is that we probably wouldn't have root access on the box. That's certainly a drawback, but it's not a showstopper. VA has expressed a willingness (indeed, an enthusiasm) to help us get done what we need to get done -- and, to be honest, our needs aren't *that* complex. Also, if we really need it, we might be able to get a dedicated box with root access there; it's just that Rob Walker has said VA would help a lot less with system administration if we're running the box, because they can't afford the overhead of working around with other people's system administration methods. (This seems an entirely reasonable position to me.) However, if we can manage without root access, we get some pretty big advantages too: they handle security issues for us, they handle backups, they handle OS upgrades... I mean, it could be a pretty big win. We need to be concentrating on providing services for the CVS developers and the global CVS community, not fiddling with our server, if at all possible. So, VA Research is where I'm leaning right now. After some more discussion about hosting has occurred, I'll probably propose a vote (approval method, as the web page says) on the issue, if people are okay with that. That would be within the next week or two; hard to say with more precision, but it would probably after we all have a sense that a "healthy" amount of discussion has gone on, whatever that means. Thoughts? Best, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 01:38:32 1999 Received: from master.debian.org (qmailr@master.debian.org [209.41.108.5]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA24260 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:38:31 -0500 Received: (qmail 17548 invoked by uid 1246); 26 Jun 1999 06:35:48 -0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:35:48 -0500 From: Justin Maurer To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-ID: <19990626013548.A31924@master.debian.org> References: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com>; from Karl Fogel on Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:34:04AM -0500 X-Illuminati: You are not reading this i agree with karl, though i think mozilla is not as bad as he makes it out to be. va probably is our best bet. and just fwiw, i do know rob walker from irc, and chat with him occasionally. so va probably is a good first choice, with mozilla a close second. also, if va can't give us root access, what about sudo? i remember jason (one of the debian admins) say that the admin team doesn't even need su to admin a box. just food for thought. just my thoughts, justin -- Justin Maurer justin@linux.hypnotic.org IFT Systems, Inc. http://linux.hypnotic.org 6717 N.31st Street Tel: +1 (703) 237-5511 Arlington, Virginia, 22213 USA acf on LinuxNet From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 01:53:18 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA24317 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:53:16 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA30542; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:52:36 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting References: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: if it payed rent for disk space, you'd be rich. From: Karl Fogel Date: 26 Jun 1999 01:52:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: Karl Fogel's message of "Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Erratum: > [company] [what they do] [our contact there] > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Cygnus Systems Software Ian Taylor ^^^^^^^ I don't know where I got the "Systems" from; I think they're either just plain "Cygnus", or sometimes "Cygnus Solutions". Sorry to all the Cygnus people :-), -K From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 02:11:13 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA24408 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 02:11:12 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA30577; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 02:10:31 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 02:10:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199906260710.CAA30577@floss.red-bean.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: canonical URL now "http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/" Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: it could be worse, but it'll take time. The old URL ("ccp.html") still works, of course, but when pointing people at the site, please use the new one. I mean, people will see that we have a whole directory to ourselves, and take us that much more seriously. :-) -K From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 03:22:12 1999 Received: from delmar.durak.org (IDENT:qmailr@dt0f0n7f.san.rr.com [204.210.39.127]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA24582 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 03:22:11 -0500 Received: (qmail 19113 invoked from network); 26 Jun 1999 08:19:17 -0000 Received: from dt0f0n7f.san.rr.com (HELO savvysearch.com) (sean@204.210.39.127) by dt0f0n7f.san.rr.com with SMTP; 26 Jun 1999 08:19:17 -0000 Sender: sean@red-bean.com Message-ID: <37748D05.39F4E229@savvysearch.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:19:17 -0700 From: sean dreilinger Organization: savvysearch limited - http://www.savvysearch.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.10-ac1 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cvs continuity project Subject: cvs fud and upside of domain association... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit two thoughts to share, one marketing, one hosting... ___________________________________ 1) fud from slashdot and elsewhere a few ignorant comments from the slashdot thread on CVS today are worth keeping in mind as CVS community navigates for the next few months: ``corporations don't use cvs...I'm afraid that corporate use just isn't going to happen with out support and advertising.'' ``Didn't Linus poo-poo CVS?'' ``A bad review from Linus could be the kiss of death for a dev tool...'' would really hate for all the news sources, analysts and IT decision makers who monitor slashdot and other discussion forums to get a totally skewed understanding of CVS based on some underinformed posts like this. although hosting and migration of existing CVS information and sw/distribution is obviously an urgent priority, i am interested to hear $.02 on some longer-range issues of how CVS can best be presented to existing and potential user communities. the community consensus of which Free software solution to adopt is usually a meritocracy, but what happens when decision makers base their decisions on comments with no merit? customers who select the software part of their SCM/QA process are put in a position where they are encouraged to view everything (cvs/aegis/prcs/bitkeeper/commercial tools) as competitors and pick the ``best'' -- i think the CVS community can make an excellent presentation for increasing use of CVS without putting down any of the excellent work going on with other tools and related emerging standards (WebDAV is in my mind). i have a few brainstorms on how to accomplish this but would love to get $.02 from the other people assembling here that are interested in the health of one extremely cool solution that is arguably the hub of the most ambitious open-source (and closed source) development projects on earth (cvs for short :-). ___________________________________ 2) hosting: positive pr by association $.02 on the hosting from me: go for hosting / colo with the biggest-name sponsor that comes forward. it brings some endorsement by association that can be very persuasive beyond the technical issues of bandwidth and root privileges. companies like VA Research and Cygnus are beautiful partners in this regard. -- mailto:sean@savvysearch.com sean dreilinger, mlis http://www.savvysearch.com http://durak.org/sean From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:16:22 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA25903 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:16:21 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:13:30 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: sean dreilinger CC: cvs continuity project In-reply-to: <37748D05.39F4E229@savvysearch.com> (message from sean dreilinger on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:19:17 -0700) Subject: Re: cvs fud and upside of domain association... Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:13:30 -0400 slashdot in general can be a source of misleading information. The FSF gets annoyed by it, too. Rather than telling the CVS developers how obnoxious slashdot can be, you might consider spending some time trying to see if there is a way slashdot could be changed to not suck so much. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:18:32 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA25934 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:18:32 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:15:41 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: Justin Maurer CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990626013548.A31924@master.debian.org> (message from Justin Maurer on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:35:48 -0500) Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:15:41 -0400 also, if va can't give us root access, what about sudo? i remember jason (one of the debian admins) say that the admin team doesn't even need su to admin a box. just food for thought. that depends on how sudo is configured. where I work (Basis Technology), sudo is configured so that most of us can do sudo bash, which more or less has the exact same functionality as knowing the root password to be able to run su. It is nearly impossible to configure sudo so that it gives sudo users a reasonable amount of freedom without giving them full root access. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:26:04 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA25981; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:26:03 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:23:18 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500) Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:23:18 -0400 It certainly is true that Red Bean has to change ISPs occasionally. But I bet there's less than a 50% chance that if VA is choosen today as the home of CVS that VA will still be the home of CVS after Red Bean has gone through two ISP moves. Maybe VA will be a stable home, maybe it won't be. I guess I expect that VA *might* be a bit more stable than OnShore, but I'm not completely certain of that. Basically, I don't think you can be particularily certain that any Internet connectivity arrangements that exist today are going to be around five years from now. (Or at least, not any free colocation type arrangements. It's reasonable to assume that MIT will have reasonable net connectivity five years from now, for example.) From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:29:46 1999 Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA26007; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:29:44 -0500 Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA51210; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:26:59 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-ID: <19990626122659.A31609@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com>; from Karl Fogel on Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:34:04AM -0500 Hi, guys - On Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:34:04AM -0500, Karl Fogel wrote: > Okay, I've just gotten done processing the recent slew of requests to > join the mailing list (whew), now back to the matter at hand... I'd > like to sum up our hosting options, and then offer my own opinions on > those options. > > We have offers, all of them firm (I think), from: > > [company] [what they do] [our contact there] > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Cygnus Systems Software Ian Taylor > Mozilla Software Noah Friedman > Schlund ISP Thomas Nagel > VA Research Hardware Rob Walker > IFT Software (non-profit) Justin Maurer > Red Bean Software, mostly Everyone Hey, if the hosting options are not yet settled, I'd like to volunteer, too. :-) Advantages include: * RootsWeb is chiefly a community hosting service (mailing lists, Web pages, databases and search engines), not a software company. We definitely would not have any illusions of becoming the maintainers of CVS or interfering with the maintenance process. (Lord knows we have enough to do...) * We have plenty of resources. More than seven T1s at this point into various NOCs (I don't even know exactly how many), and a farm of dual-PPro and -PII servers running Linux and FreeBSD. * Being senior sysadmin, I get to make some of these decisions, which means that at least some of you (esp. those I know personally) should be able to get root access. Disadvantages: * Due largely to our touch-and-go finances (we're actively seeking venture capital but rely largely on user contributions right now) our NOCs are flung far and wide over Southern California. We don't have operators on site. That means that we can't do tape backups; mostly we handle backups by rsyncing to other servers. Also, if a server crashes, it may be as long as a day (depending on how mission-critical it is) before Brian can drive out to Anaheim to bring it back online. As money starts coming in, we're planning to build our own NOC (rather than colloing), with better physical resources and probably better onsite staffing as well. But until then, there is a risk that a server down may not come back up for many hours. Brian and Randy are the best server builders I've ever seen, and it is *not* common for a machine to die suddenly without warning, but it has happened. This is not quite a firm offer: I don't own 50% of the company, but I own enough that I'm on the board of directors. :-) If the group wants to consider it seriously, I'll talk to Brian and Bob. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative system obfuscator and hack-of-all-trades From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:37:49 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA26049; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:37:48 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:34:56 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: Tim Pierce CC: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990626122659.A31609@ma-1.rootsweb.com> (message from Tim Pierce on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:26:59 -0400) Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:34:56 -0400 * Due largely to our touch-and-go finances (we're actively seeking venture capital but rely largely on user contributions right now) our NOCs are flung far and wide over Southern California. We don't have operators on site. That means that we can't do tape backups; mostly we handle backups by rsyncing to other servers. Also, if a server crashes, it may be as long as a day (depending on how mission-critical it is) before Brian can drive out to Anaheim to bring it back online. As money starts coming in, we're planning to build our own NOC (rather than colloing), with better physical resources and probably better onsite staffing as well. But until then, there is a risk that a server down may not come back up for many hours. Brian and Randy are the best server builders I've ever seen, and it is *not* common for a machine to die suddenly without warning, but it has happened. Does this mean that there is some risk that your company will completely fall apart within the next year or two? (Not that VA, OnShore, and Cygnus don't face similar risks...) Other than the fact that your company strikes me as slightly less stable than some of the alternatives, it does look like an interesting offer; it sounds like plenty of bandwidth and sysadmining help from the host, while some reasonable amount of root access still being available. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:49:53 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA26134 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:49:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 20241 invoked by uid 4); 26 Jun 1999 16:47:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 9250 invoked by uid 269); 26 Jun 1999 16:46:55 -0000 Message-ID: <19990626164655.9249.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 26 Jun 1999 12:46:55 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500) Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting References: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500 From: Karl Fogel Cygnus and Mozilla are both software companies; they have a lot of hackish people with strong technical opinions. I'm a little bit afraid that they would be tempted to confuse "hosting the Cyclic resources" with "being the maintainers of CVS". I know from personal experience that many, many people have trouble distinguishing the hosting company from the developer group. In fact, this confusion was a fairly common theme among some of the early hosting offers I saw (just before the CCP list was officially started). It's a very easy and understandable mistake to make... so imagine how much *easier* it would to fall into that trap when one also may have a technical agenda in mind for CVS development. I dunno, do people really think that Cygnus is the maintainer of all the projects on the sourceware site? Look at http://sourceware.cygnus.com/sourcecode.html Do people think Cygnus maintains autoconf, automake, glibc, xconq? Maybe they do. We need to be concentrating on providing services for the CVS developers and the global CVS community, not fiddling with our server, if at all possible. Yes, I agree. The CVS community should take advantage of existing infrastructure rather than constructing or maintaining infrastructure. That's why I suggested sourceware in the first place. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 11:51:35 1999 Received: from swish.red-bean.com (86-225.cnet.com [204.162.86.225]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA26187; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:51:33 -0500 Received: (from noel@localhost) by swish.red-bean.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10819; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:39:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: swish.red-bean.com: noel set sender to noel@swish.red-bean.com using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14197.605.382922.143035@swish.red-bean.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:39:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Noel Cragg To: nemo@red-bean.com CC: cvs continuity project Subject: Re: cvs fud and upside of domain association... References: <37748D05.39F4E229@savvysearch.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.67 under Emacs 20.3.1 Reply-To: noel@red-bean.com JW> slashdot in general can be a source of misleading information. Ahh. I heard it about Usenet, but it still holds true for all types of internet-disseminated information: "Uninformed opinion has made Usenet News what it is today." Substitute "The Web" or "Slashdot" as appropriate. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 12:13:25 1999 Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA26302; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:13:23 -0500 Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA51550; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:10:38 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-ID: <19990626131038.E31609@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <19990626122659.A31609@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Joel N. Weber II on Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 12:34:56PM -0400 On Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 12:34:56PM -0400, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > * Due largely to our touch-and-go finances (we're actively seeking > venture capital but rely largely on user contributions right now) > ... > > Does this mean that there is some risk that your company will > completely fall apart within the next year or two? (Not that VA, > OnShore, and Cygnus don't face similar risks...) There probably is some risk of that, it's a fair question. However, I don't think it's greater than (say) Cygnus's risk. We have constantly been growing over the last two years, and things are only getting better. I'm more concerned about the short-term effects of a tight budget on our hosting services than about the risk that we'll go completely down the tubes. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative system obfuscator and hack-of-all-trades From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 12:46:42 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org ([199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA26465; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:46:41 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:43:47 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: Tim Pierce CC: "Joel N. Weber II" , kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990626131038.E31609@ma-1.rootsweb.com> (message from Tim Pierce on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:10:38 -0400) Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:43:47 -0400 On Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 12:34:56PM -0400, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > * Due largely to our touch-and-go finances (we're actively seeking > venture capital but rely largely on user contributions right now) > ... > > Does this mean that there is some risk that your company will > completely fall apart within the next year or two? (Not that VA, > OnShore, and Cygnus don't face similar risks...) There probably is some risk of that, it's a fair question. However, I don't think it's greater than (say) Cygnus's risk. We have constantly been growing over the last two years, and things are only getting better. I'm more concerned about the short-term effects of a tight budget on our hosting services than about the risk that we'll go completely down the tubes. OK. And given things like Cygnus randomly killing their office in Cambridge, MA, I don't have an infinite amount of faith that Cygnus will be around forever, either. (It wasn't *completely* random. But some people I knew lost their jobs at Cygnus as a result of that.) From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 13:06:40 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA26587 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:06:38 -0500 Received: (qmail 20804 invoked by uid 4); 26 Jun 1999 18:03:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 9561 invoked by uid 269); 26 Jun 1999 18:03:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19990626180339.9560.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 26 Jun 1999 14:03:38 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: nemo@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (nemo@red-bean.com) Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting References: From: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:43:47 -0400 And given things like Cygnus randomly killing their office in Cambridge, MA, I don't have an infinite amount of faith that Cygnus will be around forever, either. (It wasn't *completely* random. But some people I knew lost their jobs at Cygnus as a result of that.) It wasn't random at all, and I think it's somewhat unfair to characterize it that way. That was not the first time Cygnus laid people off, and I'm sure it will not be the last. Business decisions may seem arbitrary to you, but that does not necessarily mean that they are in fact arbitrary. It would be reasonable to ask whether whatever prompted Cygnus to make this decision might prompt them to eliminate the sourceware site (my personal answer is that it would not, but it's a reasonable question to ask). However, to suggest that whatever prompted Cygnus to make this decision will somehow cause Cygnus to shut down as a company seems peculiar to me. I don't mean to be an apologist for Cygnus here. They've made a number of decisions with which I disagree. However, I think I disagree from a more informed standpoint. I happen to think that closing down the Massachusetts office was a reasonable decision from a business standpoint, though clearly an unfortunate one for those who worked there. If I understood matters correctly (and I may not have, as I was no longer working at Cygnus at that time), two people, including the office manager, were laid off unconditionally; the rest were encouraged to stay with the company as telecommuters, and five out of eight people did so. It is of course true that any of the organizations under discussion might disappear, including Cygnus. I happen to think that VA Research is at more risk than Cygnus due to increasingly direct competition from Dell and other PC hardware manufacturers, but 1) others no doubt disagree 2) even if VA Research were acquired, I expect they would continue to maintain their supported free sites, just as I expect would occur with Cygnus. In any case, it appears that the sentiment on this list is in favour of some solution other than Cygnus, and I'm sure that whatever choice is made will work out fine. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 18:39:15 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA27611 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:39:12 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA31632; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:38:24 -0500 To: sean dreilinger Cc: cvs continuity project Subject: Re: cvs fud and upside of domain association... References: <37748D05.39F4E229@savvysearch.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: ballast for RAM. From: Karl Fogel Date: 26 Jun 1999 18:38:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: sean dreilinger's message of "Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:19:17 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 71 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 sean dreilinger writes: > a few ignorant comments from the slashdot thread on CVS today are worth > keeping in mind as CVS community navigates for the next few months: > [...] > > would really hate for all the news sources, analysts and IT decision > makers who monitor slashdot and other discussion forums to get a totally > skewed understanding of CVS based on some underinformed posts like this. I noticed those comments on Slashdot, too. They were followed by replies from people championing CVS... I guess my feeling is, if the software really is good, the PR will take care of itself. Everyone (including IT decision makers) already knows that there's a lot of nonsense posted on the Net; they'll make their decision based on information from people they trust, or at least from posts that appear to be rational. Or they'll make their decision irrationally, in which case it's hardly a huge loss to the CVS community if they choose something else. Besides, who are we to tell strangers that CVS is right for their project? Maybe it's not... If their project includes plenty of MS-Word docs and involves a lot of point-and-click participants, CVS probably is *not* the right tool. I guess what I'm saying is, I think we ought to focus on disseminating "first-order" information about CVS: that is, the actual facts people are looking for, such as "it's free software" "somewhat portable, very portable among Unices" "allows collaboration with off-site developers" "has ability to retrieve past snapshots" not on second-order, arguable facts such as "easy to use" "you won't regret it" "Linus was wrong about CVS" There is no need to respond to people who post to Slashdot saying that a) they don't like CVS, or b) they like CVS but are worried because it has no corporate branding. Healthy software is the best response -- just keep CVS alive and well, and it will flourish. It's not necessary to play the PR game. But I'm not even sure I should be posting this. :-) Right now, let's find a place to host... > $.02 on the hosting from me: go for hosting / colo with the biggest-name > sponsor that comes forward. it brings some endorsement by association that > can be very persuasive beyond the technical issues of bandwidth and root > privileges. companies like VA Research and Cygnus are beautiful partners > in this regard. Hmm. I'm not sure the brand name of our ISP is going to matter to the CVS community. I think we should make the decision based on - who is going to provide the best technical infrastructure for us - who is going to understand our needs - who is going to be around for longest (Naturally, we have to guess at a lot, since we don't have perfect information about any of our options!) Just because there are people in the world who respond to fuzzy propaganda signals doesn't mean that we have to pander to them. I know that sounds harsh, but IMHO basing decisions on "second-order" factors, such as the implied (but actually non-existent) endorsement CVS might derive from the hosting organization, would not be a viable long-term strategy. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jun 26 19:38:37 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27871 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:38:35 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA31704; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:37:52 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: hosting options now listed at Web site Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: freely redistributable; void where prohibited by law. From: Karl Fogel Date: 26 Jun 1999 19:37:51 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Please see http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/hosting.html It lists the options, but does not attempt to summarize our discussions so far. Therefore, new members might want to read over the mailing list archive (I'd recommend downloading the whole thing and reading it with some mailreader that can handle Unix `mbox' format): http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/archive.txt I'll try to keep hosting.html up to date as new offers come in, though I suspect most of the major offers have already been made. -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jun 28 20:13:33 1999 Received: from mail.glink.net.hk (mail.glink.net.hk [202.72.0.38]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA07954 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:13:31 -0500 Received: from themroc.fontworks.com (root@themroc.fontworks.com [202.72.1.14]) by mail.glink.net.hk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA11704 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:10:28 +0800 (HKT) Received: from [192.168.168.139] (mac-joerg.fontworks.com [192.168.168.139]) by themroc.fontworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA11245 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:09:21 +0800 Message-Id: <199906290109.JAA11245@themroc.fontworks.com> Subject: Re: cvs fud and upside of domain association... Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 09:08:15 +0800 x-sender: joerg@themroc.fontworks.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Joerg Bullmann To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Karl Fogel wrote: >involves a lot of point-and-click participants, CVS >probably is *not* the right tool. No no no no no! I disagree! MacOS: three (independent!) clients Windows: one client Java: one client So even beyond Unix in the point-and-click arena, CVS has got quite a presence. Am I wrong here? I don't know how widely it is actually used, but it for sure is available. Joerg From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jun 29 00:22:57 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA08695 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:22:55 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA27072; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:22:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:22:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199906290522.AAA27072@floss.red-bean.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: archive now browseable (new members, please read past msgs) Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: even your dog won't like it. Hello, all. The mailing list archive is now browseable (I was too lazy to install Hypermail, so I rewrote it instead :-) ). The link at the bottom of the http://www.red-bean.com/ccp will take you there. Oh well, I'll give the URL here, too: http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/list-archive.cgi If you recently joined this list, you should definitely read over those past messages, in preparation for our soon-to-be-upcoming vote on where to host. At the risk of tooting my own horn (but also to spare you the effort of wading through a lot of old email!), may I suggest you start with Message #61, in which I summarized, and editorialized on, our hosting options as of last Saturday. But do be sure to go on and read the other messages in that thread, as there was a range of opinions offered. Best, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jun 29 04:55:13 1999 Received: from piglet.splode.com (pm3b-11.meer.net [209.157.134.11]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA09294; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:55:11 -0500 Received: (from friedman@localhost) by piglet.splode.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02691; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 02:52:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Noah Friedman To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: thoughts on hosting Reply-To: Noah Friedman In-Reply-To: kfogel@floss.onshore.com Saturday, 26 Jun 1999 01:34:04 -0500 References: <199906260634.BAA30516@floss.red-bean.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 02:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <19990629025219.690312.FMU779@piglet.splode.com> >In the case of Mozilla, I'm also worried because they (Netscape) are >not really making money yet. If things start to get really tight over >there, our donated server space might be endangered. With respect to this, it's worth pointing out that mozilla.org never was and never will be a money-making organization. Its charter is to host the mozilla sources and coordinate development between commercial companies and denizens of the net. Since it's owned by Netscape/AOL there is no guarantee that that focus won't change someday, but the people working there today are personally committed to the original charter. I've seen numerous instances of Netscape expecting one thing or another and mozilla.org saying "no" if it wasn't in the interests of the free software community. So for now I'm not too worried. Mozilla is also not in the business of dictating the development process or making autocratic decisions about module ownership. When I first talked about hosting CVS sources at mozilla.org, they assumed that I would assume responsibility for setting up whatever infrastructure is desired and "own" the project. All that means to them is that I would make sure that the right developers working on cvs had access. I'm certainly not interested in trying to control the entire process because (a) I don't have time, and (b) because I simply don't think that model works. If anything, I would like to encourage some radical changes to cvs. Finally, not to speak in favor of or in disfavor of any particular hosting company you choose, let me just point out that you will be working with for-profit companies. They have turnover in management. Their priorities can change from quarter to quarter. They can decide at any moment that they cannot bear the overhead of hosting cvs development any longer, and you could be stranded. I would go so far as to suggest that you ask for a written contract that outlines what facilities will be provided, who will be responsible for X or Y major issue (e.g. who backs up the systems? admins them? Will you have to pay for power consumption, network connectivity, etc. Will you have root?) And even if they insist that they be able to drop you like a hot potato with no notice, get that in writing so there is no misunderstanding. If the people you are working with balk, point out that you have no mistrust of them (necessarily), but given the way this industry works there is no certainty that they will still be there next year, and/or that the company won't be absorbed by some larger entity. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jun 30 01:10:55 1999 Received: from savonarola.red-bean.com (savonarola.red-bean.com [208.245.165.34]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13610 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 01:10:54 -0500 Received: (from jimb@localhost) by savonarola.red-bean.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA17137; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 01:19:14 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Sourceware will host CVS, not cyclic.com. References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Blandy Date: 30 Jun 1999 01:19:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: Karl Fogel's message of "24 Jun 1999 20:17:53 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 There's something I want to make very clear: Cygnus (i.e., Sourceware) is *not* willing to host "cyclic.com". They are willing to host a set of web pages, FTP sites, CVS server, and mailing lists for CVS. I've been very impressed with the quality and attention to detail sourceware provides for its projects --- you get every feature you (well, I) ever wanted from a project web site, for almost no trouble. But they will all be addresses @sourceware.cygnus.com, http://sourceware.cygnus.com, etc. This is how sourceware does things. And you should fit things into their framework, not insist that they shift everything around to meet yours. If that's not what you want, you don't want sourceware. I'm not an official representative of sourceware, but I'm sure that's their position. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jun 30 13:55:59 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA16047; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:55:56 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA29540; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:55:08 -0500 To: Jim Blandy Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Sourceware will host CVS, not cyclic.com. References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: don't get frustrated without it. From: Karl Fogel Date: 30 Jun 1999 13:55:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Blandy's message of "30 Jun 1999 01:19:14 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Thanks for mentioning this, Jim! I hadn't realized this from Ian's posts (although I had inferred that he personally was in favor of the namespace ending up as part of "*@sourceware.cygnus.com"). Ian, can you confirm/expand on what Jim said? Jim Blandy writes: > There's something I want to make very clear: > > Cygnus (i.e., Sourceware) is *not* willing to host "cyclic.com". They > are willing to host a set of web pages, FTP sites, CVS server, and > mailing lists for CVS. I've been very impressed with the quality and > attention to detail sourceware provides for its projects --- you get > every feature you (well, I) ever wanted from a project web site, for > almost no trouble. > > But they will all be addresses @sourceware.cygnus.com, > http://sourceware.cygnus.com, etc. This is how sourceware does > things. And you should fit things into their framework, not insist > that they shift everything around to meet yours. > > If that's not what you want, you don't want sourceware. > > I'm not an official representative of sourceware, but I'm sure that's > their position. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jun 30 14:39:05 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA16384 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:39:03 -0500 Received: (qmail 18594 invoked by uid 4); 30 Jun 1999 19:36:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 1107 invoked by uid 269); 30 Jun 1999 19:35:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630193547.1106.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 30 Jun 1999 15:35:47 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: jimb@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 30 Jun 1999 13:55:07 -0500) Subject: Re: Sourceware will host CVS, not cyclic.com. References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Karl Fogel Date: 30 Jun 1999 13:55:07 -0500 I hadn't realized this from Ian's posts (although I had inferred that he personally was in favor of the namespace ending up as part of "*@sourceware.cygnus.com"). Ian, can you confirm/expand on what Jim said? When I spoke with Jason about it, what we discussed was putting all the web pages up, and putting the CVS source code into the sourceware framework. The sourceware web server would act as www.cyclic.com, and the web pages would also be available under sourceware.cygnus.com/cvs or something like that. www.cyclic.com might redirect to sourceware.cygnus.com. I'm sorry if I was misleading. I always intended to discuss putting CVS into the sourceware framework, with the www.cyclic.com web pages still available under that name, but not necessarily precisely identical to their format on the current www.cyclic.com (e.g., the snapshot directory might change). I guess I did not express this adequately. I have been assuming all along that making a copy of www.cyclic.com was only a temporary stage to keep things going the way they have been, not a permanent decision. That is the only approach that makes sense to me. There free software community now has the infrastructure to host free software projects; CVS should take advantage of that rather than striking out on its own. That is, I think it's better to fit into existing infrastructure than it is to just get a machine connected to the Internet somewhere. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jun 30 15:20:56 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16706 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:20:53 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA29684; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:19:27 -0500 To: Ian Lance Taylor Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Sourceware will host CVS, not cyclic.com. References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> <19990630193547.1106.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: with our software, there's no limit to what you can't do! From: Karl Fogel Date: 30 Jun 1999 15:19:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: Ian Lance Taylor's message of "30 Jun 1999 15:35:47 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 95 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 [Hey everyone, Jim Kingdon says that people often confused "Cyclic" with "Cygnus". So in this email, be careful not to misread one for the other, as the distinction is especially important here.] Ian Lance Taylor writes: > I have been assuming all along that making a copy of www.cyclic.com > was only a temporary stage to keep things going the way they have > been, not a permanent decision. That is the only approach that makes > sense to me. There free software community now has the infrastructure > to host free software projects; CVS should take advantage of that > rather than striking out on its own. That is, I think it's better to > fit into existing infrastructure than it is to just get a machine > connected to the Internet somewhere. Well, the permanence of "cyclic.com" is certainly a matter of legitimate debate for the CCP -- and, since as a long-term consideration, it affects our decision of where to host, it can't really be deferred until after the move. My assumption and preferrence has actually been that "cyclic.com" would remain the home of CVS permanently. I intended to make that clear on the CCP web page, but perhaps I didn't. (Anyway, even if I had stated it as an unambiguous axiom there, that wouldn't mean we can't debate it now). It is true that "the free software community now has the infrastructure to host free software projects", but that doesn't mean that the infrastructure provided by Cygnus is the only one available. Mainly we need a connected machine, with backups and other routine system administration tasks already done; VA Research gives us this, as do other options. Setting up our repository, web pages, etc, is not very time-consuming, and frankly, that kind of project-specific stuff is something we ought to do ourselves, rather than have it done for us... It's just as easy to get bogged down in communications overhead as in actually doing things. And maintaining stuff after it's set up is something we'd have to do in any case. So I don't see what great advantage is gained by hosting at sourceware.cygnus.com, and in a quoted email below I will list some disadvantages. But just to summarize, I think keeping things at "cyclic.com" is a good idea because: 1) It has been that way for a long time, people are used to it, why ask them to change (even gradually)? 2) It is neutral with regards to other companies and projects. Now here's an email on this topic that I just sent to Jim Blandy, lightly edited: --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Karl Fogel To: Jim Blandy [...] The PR factor is pretty much why I'm opposed, yah. The issue, IMHO, is not how much Cygnus contributes to Free software in general, but how much they contribute to CVS in particular. They did pay for the initial networking code, which helped a lot, but that was long ago (or did JimK do it on his own time?). They don't devote salaried time to CVS right now, as far as I know, though. Even if they did, would that justify the huge advertising benefits of having everything eventually moved into the "cygnus.com" domain? I think for the URL to advertise "cygnus.com" every single time someone accesses a formerly-Cyclic page would be implying way too much Cygnus involvement. Hosting is a big favor, but it's not *that* big (because it's actually a buyer's market right now, in that there are many places willing to host us... or maybe that makes it a seller's market? Anyway, you know what I mean: it's *our* market). Most people make reasonable deductions from little clues like URL names. If the main CVS URLs all gradually came to look like "*.sourceware.cygnus.com/*", then the URLs would in a way be making a statement that isn't true -- they would imply that CVS is being maintained by Cygnus, and this luster would rub off on Cygnus's other endeavors. Although sourceware may say explicitly, somewhere, that Cygnus just provides hosting and doesn't necessarily maintain the software, the truth is that few people take note of such niceties. The result: Cygnus's reputation would be enhanced with every good thing that happens to CVS. Now, reputation may not be a strictly zero-sum game, but I can't help thinking that in this case, Cygnus getting more good press could only mean that the real CVS development team would get correspondingly less. Sure, hosting is nice, but it's definitely not the hard stuff. The hard stuff is hacking on the software, testing, managing releases, maintaining the bug database, etc. I don't want attention directed away from the people who actually do the hard stuff, because they do it partly for the glory. [...] From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jun 30 15:34:36 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA16834 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:34:34 -0500 Received: (qmail 19062 invoked by uid 4); 30 Jun 1999 20:31:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 1311 invoked by uid 269); 30 Jun 1999 20:31:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630203119.1310.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 30 Jun 1999 16:31:19 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 30 Jun 1999 15:19:27 -0500) Subject: Re: Sourceware will host CVS, not cyclic.com. References: <199906241336.IAA13263@queso.onshore.com> <199906242151.RAA13457@harvey.cyclic.com> <19990630193547.1106.qmail@daffy.airs.com> From: Karl Fogel Date: 30 Jun 1999 15:19:27 -0500 It is true that "the free software community now has the infrastructure to host free software projects", but that doesn't mean that the infrastructure provided by Cygnus is the only one available. No, of course not. For example, Mozilla has a fundamentally similar setup. I haven't been arguing against that at all. Mainly we need a connected machine, with backups and other routine system administration tasks already done; VA Research gives us this, as do other options. Setting up our repository, web pages, etc, is not very time-consuming, and frankly, that kind of project-specific stuff is something we ought to do ourselves, rather than have it done for us... It's just as easy to get bogged down in communications overhead as in actually doing things. And maintaining stuff after it's set up is something we'd have to do in any case. This is where I personally disagree. CVS development is moving pretty slowly as it is. I don't see why you say that this is ``something we ought to do ourselves.'' To me, routine stuff like managing mailing lists, providing a simple way to remotely update web pages, and handling the CVS repository is exactly what we should have somebody else do for us. It's the same for every project; why should the CVS project do it specially? The issue, IMHO, is not how much Cygnus contributes to Free software in general, but how much they contribute to CVS in particular. They did pay for the initial networking code, which helped a lot, but that was long ago (or did JimK do it on his own time?). They don't devote salaried time to CVS right now, as far as I know, though. Even if they did, would that justify the huge advertising benefits of having everything eventually moved into the "cygnus.com" domain? I haven't looked at the ChangeLog files recently, but I believe that while I was at Cygnus I did more work on CVS than anybody else outside of Cyclic. Of course that is the past, and it is not relevant anyhow. Yes, clearly Cygnus will get some amount of good PR from hosting CVS. Is that bad? Whoever hosts the pages will some amount of good PR. Sure, hosting is nice, but it's definitely not the hard stuff. The hard stuff is hacking on the software, testing, managing releases, maintaining the bug database, etc. I don't want attention directed away from the people who actually do the hard stuff, because they do it partly for the glory. Why does a contributor to CVS get any more glory because it is hosted at cyclic.com? Anyhow, as I said before, the mood on the list seems to opposed to Cygnus hosting CVS, so this is a fairly pointless discussion. I tried to shut up about it before, and now I'll try again. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 1 16:55:46 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA22867 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:55:44 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27095; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:53:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:53:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199907012153.RAA27095@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: trade shows One of the parts of running a successful free project typically is presence at industry trade shows such as Usenix, Lisa, Linux Expo, and the Atlanta Linux Showcase. For example, {Free,Open,Net}BSD, Debian, GNOME, X.org, GNU Fortran and others have generally done this kind of thing. I submit that this is an important activity for Cyclic, along with the other areas of (1) maintaining CVS, (2) releasing it, and (3) hosting web/lists/&c (in fact, those 4 areas could have 4 teams, or 4 chairs, or some such organization). The trade show deal as I see it consists of: * Getting developers there. For linux kernel development, for example, airfare/hotel is sponsored by Red Hat, VA, and other linux companies (they will pay the way of Alan Cox or Miguel or whoever). Obviously, the simplest system is that people pay their own way (or find their own sponsor), but there is some winnage in having one or more sponsors who will make some attempt to proactively seek out the people who most should be there (Larry Jones and Karl Fogel spring to mind for Cyclic but I'm not trying to come up with a list here and now). * Booth. The idea here is that if you have electricity and a net connection and perhaps some furniture, it is a good place to hack and meet people and so on. Successful free software booths have a rather different feel from the "we are the company, selling you something" feel of most commercial booths - it is more like a coffee house or cocktail party than an exhibition. This is a matter of either raising about $1500-3000 (very rough numbers, will vary from show to show), or persuading the show to donate a free or discounted booth (in the case of Usenix/Lisa, I've made some inquiries and the procedure is to submit a short proposal to the executive director saying what is in it for the show attendees, not just that Cyclic is cool). * BOF. No money, someone just needs to sign up for a BoF (birds of a feather - informal meeting) and provide one degree or another of leadership (at least, standing up in front and saying, "hi this is the CVS BoF", in the more ambitious versions, talking about the state of CVS development and what has been happening and so on). * Speeches. One needs to apply to the peer review committee some time in advance with a paper which people would want to hear (presumably, concerning some technical aspect of CVS or new CVS-related package, or whatever). This requires a fairly decent input of time, but none of money (at some shows, speakers may even get modest amounts of money from the show). The timeframe for all of this would typically be about 3-6 months before the show (the extent to which this is written in stone varies but it is a good ballpark). So, anyone want to work on one or more of these angles? As with other aspects of the CCP, I am probably available for some level of involvement but don't really expect to lead it (as I see it, bringing in new leadership is the main point of the CCP). From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 2 00:19:32 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24318 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:19:30 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA31747; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:18:32 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: trade shows References: <199907012153.RAA27095@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: where the service packs are larger than the original releases. From: Karl Fogel Date: 02 Jul 1999 00:18:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:53:00 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Jim Kingdon writes: > So, anyone want to work on one or more of these angles? Yeah! Face-to-face contact among users and developers is so rare in the free software community -- more of it can only be a good thing, IMHO. >As with other aspects of the CCP, I am probably available for some >level of involvement but don't really expect to lead it (as I see it, >bringing in new leadership is the main point of the CCP). You've probably been to more such shows than most of us, possibly than any of us, so I certainly hope you'll be involved. :-) As a matter of group credibility, I personally would like to see the server transition smoothly accomplished and us start to get active in maintaining/improving the web pages, development process, etc, before we represent ourselves at any shows as some kind of guardian of the CVS flame. Not that I doubt we will do all those things; I just don't want to put the cart before the horse's mouth, or whatever, you know I mean... That being said, you probably know off the top of your head some shows coming up. What might they be, and approximately when? From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 2 01:19:22 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA24437; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:19:19 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA27043; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:16:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:16:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199907020616.CAA27043@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 02 Jul 1999 00:18:32 -0500) Subject: Re: trade shows References: <199907012153.RAA27095@harvey.cyclic.com> > As a matter of group credibility, I personally would like to see the > server transition smoothly accomplished and us start to get active in > maintaining/improving the web pages, development process, etc, before > we represent ourselves at any shows as some kind of guardian of the > CVS flame. Well, one of the purposes of the show is to recruit people to do the work, so I don't see it as a good thing to wait until everything is all set. If there is a problem with calling ourselves guardians, then just say "we are some CVS dudes" or something less official. > That being said, you probably know off the top of your head some shows > coming up. What might they be, and approximately when? The ones that spring to mind are: * Atlanta Linux Showcase, Atlanta, 12-14 October. Booth is $3000, I think including electricity, network, and some furniture. BoFs, speakers. http://www.linuxshowcase.org/ * Lisa, Seattle, 10 November. Booth is about $2200 plus electricity, network, and furniture, so probably about the same price as Atlanta. BoFs, speakers. Although Usenix (in the spring) is more appropriate than Lisa (which is for sysadmins), there is a decent amount of overlap in terms of who goes to the two conferences. See http://www.usenix.org/ From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 2 21:48:24 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA28018 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:48:21 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA00484; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:47:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:47:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199907030247.VAA00484@floss.red-bean.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Okay, time to vote Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: freely redistributable; void where prohibited by law. I think we're ready to vote on a hosting organization now. (Hope people are comfortable with me just scheduling it like this -- I mean, if we voted on when to vote, it would raise all sorts of weird bootstrapping issues... :-) ). The URL is http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/vote.html There's a Web form there so you can do point-and-click voting, and there's also an explaination of how "approval voting" works, in case anyone hasn't heard of it before. No one is under any obligation to vote, of course. If you feel you're not familiar enough with the issues to cast an informed ballot, that's fine, just sit back and wait for the results to come out. Voting closes at 12:00pm on Wednesday, 7 July, Chicago time (CDT). (Because this is a holiday weekend in the US, many people will have Monday off and may not check their email till Tuesday). After the voting is over, I'll publish the results in full to this list (for technical reasons, it would be difficult to do a secret ballot anyway). That way, each person can check that their votes were registered accurately. If anyone has a problem with their votes being thus publicized, please email me before Wednesday, and I'll make sure yours don't show up in a public forum. -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jul 3 00:45:16 1999 Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28289 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 00:45:14 -0500 Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13196 for ccp@red-bean.com; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 01:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 01:42:24 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: last-minute update Message-ID: <19990703014224.B81810@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Hi, guys - I've discussed our hosting options with Brian and Bob. They're extremely eager to host Cyclic, but the terms would be pretty similar to Cygnus's offer -- i.e. we would host the Cyclic pages and resources on "cvs.rootsweb.com", supporting the "cyclic.com" domain only as a transitional measure. The reason for this stipulation is that as a hosting company, we need to make sure that folks who visit the site realize that RootsWeb supports community-oriented services for free software, and that we're capable of offering similar hosting services for other projects. Experience has taught us that simply adding a "Hosted by RootsWeb" banner on the main page doesn't get the message across. We are acutely aware that the "hard stuff" is more in hacking the code than in hosting the site, and are not interested in trying to take credit for CVS itself -- just for the data management services that we can provide. :-) Anyway, enough rambling -- I just wanted to make sure that was clear to everyone before they voted. I'm sorry that I didn't pursue this before the vote announcement was up. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative system obfuscator and hack-of-all-trades From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 5 01:32:44 1999 Received: from oranje.my.domain (dial9-196.netcologne.de [194.8.195.196]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04574 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:32:43 -0500 Received: (from marc@localhost) by oranje.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA01845; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:29:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from van.woerkom@netcologne.de) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:29:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907050629.IAA01845@oranje.my.domain> X-Authentication-Warning: oranje.my.domain: marc set sender to van.woerkom@netcologne.de using -f From: Marc van Woerkom To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Voting process Reply-to: van.woerkom@netcologne.de Thanks to Karl for his work spent on this so far! Regards, Marc From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jul 6 14:43:09 1999 Received: from x.themes.org (x.themes.org [209.249.66.213]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA10729 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:43:08 -0500 Received: (qmail 3248 invoked by uid 500); 6 Jul 1999 16:40:36 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:40:36 -0400 From: Trae McCombs To: ccp@red-bean.com Cc: david@linux.com, dan@linux.com Subject: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) Message-ID: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us Hi there, We use CVS as well, and are concerned about its state. I don't know if you guys want it or not, but we would love to offer you hosting for mailing list and services, we have our own mail admin for Linux.com, and we handle others mail as well. Also, we can provide web space for you and a home for the project. If you came up with a domain name that you wanted purchased, VA would pay for it and give it to you guys. Just let me know how we can help. I want to, no... I NEED for CVS to survive and thrive ;) Trae -- __________________________________________ Trae McCombs _________ Linux.com | Site Manager | x@linux.com | 1 888 Linux 4 U ext 8700 ----------------------------------------------------------------- x@themes.org | x@slashdot.org | x@freshmeat.net | x@stampede.org x@slackware.com | x@userfriendly.org | x@valinux.com x@redhat.com | x@windowmaker.org From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jul 6 15:21:38 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10934 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:21:35 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05305; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:18:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:18:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199907062018.QAA05305@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: x@linux.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com Cc: david@linux.com, dan@linux.com In-reply-to: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> (message from Trae McCombs on Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:40:36 -0400) Subject: Re: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) References: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> > If you came up with a domain name that you wanted purchased, VA > would pay for it and give it to you guys. Just let me know how > we can help. I want to, no... I NEED for CVS to survive and > thrive ;) Just to update everyone on the status of cyclic.com (and other Cyclic assets) - I do have one apparently serious buyer who may be interested in them. Of course, all the usual disclaimers apply, most notably that this might not happen. Even if it does happen, the CCP may have a reason(s) to exist, in one form or another. If VA & the CCP think it is important for Cyclic to be non-profit instead of for-profit, y'all are welcome to work on a bid too. I'm not going to try to dictate what course Cyclic takes - my two main criteria will be (1) who offers more money (if anyone - I don't have anything even close to a firm offer yet and I'm not really interested in token sums or stock in a startup or other items of small/speculative value), and (2) who will provide a good future for Cyclic - the CCP are the most credible on this score right now. Maybe Karl Fogel or someone would like to answer Trae from a more CCP-centric point of view than a outgoing-Cyclic-owner point of view. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 00:32:30 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12717 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:32:26 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA11257; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:03:18 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: x@linux.com, ccp@red-bean.com, david@linux.com, dan@linux.com Subject: Re: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) References: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> <199907062018.QAA05305@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: programs so large they have weather. From: Karl Fogel Date: 07 Jul 1999 11:03:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:18:46 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 127 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 > Maybe Karl Fogel or someone would like to answer Trae from a more > CCP-centric point of view than a outgoing-Cyclic-owner point of view. Hi, Trae. I can give you my [completely unofficial] opinion on the CCP's point of view; fortunately, if someone else in the CCP feels I've said something inaccurate, I know they'll follow up. :-) First of all, thank you for the generous hosting offer. We had already gathered some other offers, so right now we're choosing (by vote) among those options, and I think there's no need for us to add another one to our list. Though of course we'll keep you in mind in case our current possibilities fall through. We kind of coalesced into existence very quickly, when Jim Kingdon announced that Cyclic Software would be folding as a for-profit business. Since Cyclic had been providing Web space for the CVS community, and mail/repository services for the CVS development team, we knew those things would need a new home soon. "New home" does not necessarily mean "new domain name". Our ideal outcome has always been -- and still is -- that the Cyclic Software name and "cyclic.com" domain will *not* be bought by anyone else, and that Jim Kingdon will transfer that name to the CCP, to be run as a non-profit benefitting the CVS community. In other words, the CCP would actually change its name to "Cyclic Software", and the web page and repository names would stay as they are (and very probably Jim Kingdon would remain as a board member, if he has the time). The only change would be that they'd be on a new server, since Jim Kingdon currently has the servers in his office and is bearing all the expense of maintaining the "cyclic.com" presence. Of course, Jim Kingdon's announcement about a potential buyer for Cyclic Software makes this all a bit more complicated. :-) Jim Kingdon wrote: > Just to update everyone on the status of cyclic.com (and other Cyclic > assets) - I do have one apparently serious buyer who may be interested > in them. Of course, all the usual disclaimers apply, most notably > that this might not happen. Even if it does happen, the CCP may have > a reason(s) to exist, in one form or another. > > If VA & the CCP think it is important for Cyclic to be non-profit > instead of for-profit, y'all are welcome to work on a bid too. I'm > not going to try to dictate what course Cyclic takes - my two main > criteria will be (1) who offers more money (if anyone - I don't have > anything even close to a firm offer yet and I'm not really interested > in token sums or stock in a startup or other items of > small/speculative value), and (2) who will provide a good future for > Cyclic - the CCP are the most credible on this score right now. If someone buys the Cyclic Software name, they'll want the domain cyclic.com too, that's for sure. But the maintainers would still need a repository server, mailing lists, bug database, etc. Now, it's possible, even probable, that the buyer of Cyclic would offer to do all those things too. I'm sure Jim Kingdon would make clear to them that what they are buying is the Cyclic name, not the CVS development process, which Cyclic doesn't own, but they might desire to host those services anyway, for whatever reasons (both altruism and self-interest would make sense). As long as the new owner seems to do a good job, I think the CCP wouldn't need to do anything about hosting. That problem would be taken care of. (But if the owner didn't do such a good job, then we'd help find a new place to host development and/or community web pages.) Once hosting issues are taken care of, however that may turn out, I think it's always been our plan to turn our attention next to the long-term health of CVS. Emails from people on the CCP list, and the info-cvs@gnu.org list, have made it abundantly clear that there is a widespread perception that the CVS development process is slowed or stopped. People feel that patches aren't getting incorporated, that CVS isn't improving fast enough. (Rather unfairly, Jim Kingdon has taken the brunt of the blame for this -- people naively assume that he's the "head maintainer" of CVS just because he administrates the repository server.) While I think a there's a lot more CVS developer activity than people realize, on the whole it's true the process could be improved. My personal opinion is that the developer group is too small, too hesitant to invite new members, and perhaps a bit too passive about incorporating patches and adding new features; I think a lot of CVS users feel the same way (at least, many of them have told me so). The good news is that the current group of maintainers will probably be receptive to changes in process; they all want to see CVS flourish and have never been particularly territorial. I won't go into specifics here about what sort of proposals we might make, not because I don't have specific ideas, but because we're still sorting out the hosting issues and I'd like to concentrate on one thing at a time. Besides helping improve the development process, there are a lot of other things we can (and probably will) do to help CVS thrive, for example: - maintain the FAQ (currently in FAQ-o-Matic and in need of human attention) - organize beta-testers, so the developers can afford to take more risks - help seek out new developers - show up at conferences and talk to users - help find funding for specific new features - gather the numerous free third-party CVS tools into coherent distributions, organized so users can find what they need All of the above would be valuable contributions whether or not we also maintain the cyclic.com webspace. However, I still hope Cyclic can end up as a non-profit, because that would make things a lot simpler. For one thing, by removing the business aspects entirely, we wouldn't have to worry about whether the next owner of Cyclic Software will be as scrupulous as Jim Kingdon has been with regards to keeping business interests separate from community interests. Not that I blame Jim Kingdon for entertaining purchasers, by the way. He's put a lot of work into Cyclic Software and it's understandable that he'd go for the best offer (not to mention it would be highly hypocritical of me to complain about him selling Cyclic, since Jim Blandy and I sold it to him several years ago!). Whew! It appears I've posted another novel to this list. Trae, I hope this summary made sense, check out http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/ if you get a chance. And CCP'ers, I hope you all felt the above is an accurate account of our goals; please post if I mis-stated (or just plain missed) anything important. Best, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 09:45:10 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org (xanthine.gratuitous.org [199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA13887; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:45:09 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:41:45 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: Jim Kingdon , x@linux.com, ccp@red-bean.com, david@linux.com, dan@linux.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 07 Jul 1999 11:03:18 -0500) Subject: Re: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:41:45 -0400 It looks like cyclic.org isn't taken. I'm not sure that we'd *want* to use that domain, though: if Jim Kingdon decides to sell cyclic.com, there would be lots of confusion if cyclic.org were used for ongoing CVS maintainence; OTOH, if Jim decides to turn over cyclic.com to a non-profit, is it really worthwhile to migrate to cyclic.org just to make a minor point about what kind of organization Cyclic has become? I don't know what domain should be used if some suitable alternative to cyclic.com needs to be found. In particular, CVS is a TLA, and most TLA domains tend to be taken... From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 09:52:32 1999 Received: from x.themes.org (x.themes.org [209.249.66.213]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA13938 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:52:31 -0500 Received: (qmail 5472 invoked by uid 500); 7 Jul 1999 11:50:00 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:50:00 -0400 From: Trae McCombs To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: Jim Kingdon , x@linux.com, ccp@red-bean.com, david@linux.com, dan@linux.com Subject: Re: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) Message-ID: <19990707075000.F3536@themes.org> References: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> <199907062018.QAA05305@harvey.cyclic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Fogel on Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 11:03:18AM -0500 Thanks, Just wanted to make sure that pepole knew that VA wouldn't mind helping if they needed it. :) If you _DO_ ever need any hosting, Rob Walker is your man to talk to at VA: rob@valinux.com Yours, Trae On Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 11:03:18AM -0500, Karl Fogel wrote: > > Maybe Karl Fogel or someone would like to answer Trae from a more > > CCP-centric point of view than a outgoing-Cyclic-owner point of view. > > Hi, Trae. I can give you my [completely unofficial] opinion on the > CCP's point of view; fortunately, if someone else in the CCP feels > I've said something inaccurate, I know they'll follow up. :-) > > First of all, thank you for the generous hosting offer. We had > already gathered some other offers, so right now we're choosing (by > vote) among those options, and I think there's no need for us to add > another one to our list. Though of course we'll keep you in mind in > case our current possibilities fall through. > > We kind of coalesced into existence very quickly, when Jim Kingdon > announced that Cyclic Software would be folding as a for-profit > business. Since Cyclic had been providing Web space for the CVS > community, and mail/repository services for the CVS development team, > we knew those things would need a new home soon. > > "New home" does not necessarily mean "new domain name". Our ideal > outcome has always been -- and still is -- that the Cyclic Software > name and "cyclic.com" domain will *not* be bought by anyone else, and > that Jim Kingdon will transfer that name to the CCP, to be run as a > non-profit benefitting the CVS community. In other words, the CCP > would actually change its name to "Cyclic Software", and the web page > and repository names would stay as they are (and very probably Jim > Kingdon would remain as a board member, if he has the time). The only > change would be that they'd be on a new server, since Jim Kingdon > currently has the servers in his office and is bearing all the expense > of maintaining the "cyclic.com" presence. > > Of course, Jim Kingdon's announcement about a potential buyer for > Cyclic Software makes this all a bit more complicated. :-) > > Jim Kingdon wrote: > > Just to update everyone on the status of cyclic.com (and other Cyclic > > assets) - I do have one apparently serious buyer who may be interested > > in them. Of course, all the usual disclaimers apply, most notably > > that this might not happen. Even if it does happen, the CCP may have > > a reason(s) to exist, in one form or another. > > > > If VA & the CCP think it is important for Cyclic to be non-profit > > instead of for-profit, y'all are welcome to work on a bid too. I'm > > not going to try to dictate what course Cyclic takes - my two main > > criteria will be (1) who offers more money (if anyone - I don't have > > anything even close to a firm offer yet and I'm not really interested > > in token sums or stock in a startup or other items of > > small/speculative value), and (2) who will provide a good future for > > Cyclic - the CCP are the most credible on this score right now. > > If someone buys the Cyclic Software name, they'll want the domain > cyclic.com too, that's for sure. > > But the maintainers would still need a repository server, mailing > lists, bug database, etc. Now, it's possible, even probable, that the > buyer of Cyclic would offer to do all those things too. I'm sure Jim > Kingdon would make clear to them that what they are buying is the > Cyclic name, not the CVS development process, which Cyclic doesn't > own, but they might desire to host those services anyway, for whatever > reasons (both altruism and self-interest would make sense). > > As long as the new owner seems to do a good job, I think the CCP > wouldn't need to do anything about hosting. That problem would be > taken care of. (But if the owner didn't do such a good job, then we'd > help find a new place to host development and/or community web pages.) > > Once hosting issues are taken care of, however that may turn out, I > think it's always been our plan to turn our attention next to the > long-term health of CVS. Emails from people on the CCP list, and the > info-cvs@gnu.org list, have made it abundantly clear that there is a > widespread perception that the CVS development process is slowed or > stopped. People feel that patches aren't getting incorporated, that > CVS isn't improving fast enough. (Rather unfairly, Jim Kingdon has > taken the brunt of the blame for this -- people naively assume that > he's the "head maintainer" of CVS just because he administrates the > repository server.) > > While I think a there's a lot more CVS developer activity than people > realize, on the whole it's true the process could be improved. My > personal opinion is that the developer group is too small, too > hesitant to invite new members, and perhaps a bit too passive about > incorporating patches and adding new features; I think a lot of CVS > users feel the same way (at least, many of them have told me so). > > The good news is that the current group of maintainers will probably > be receptive to changes in process; they all want to see CVS flourish > and have never been particularly territorial. I won't go into > specifics here about what sort of proposals we might make, not because > I don't have specific ideas, but because we're still sorting out the > hosting issues and I'd like to concentrate on one thing at a time. > > Besides helping improve the development process, there are a lot of > other things we can (and probably will) do to help CVS thrive, for > example: > > - maintain the FAQ (currently in FAQ-o-Matic and in need of human > attention) > - organize beta-testers, so the developers can afford to take more > risks > - help seek out new developers > - show up at conferences and talk to users > - help find funding for specific new features > - gather the numerous free third-party CVS tools into coherent > distributions, organized so users can find what they need > > All of the above would be valuable contributions whether or not we > also maintain the cyclic.com webspace. However, I still hope Cyclic > can end up as a non-profit, because that would make things a lot > simpler. For one thing, by removing the business aspects entirely, we > wouldn't have to worry about whether the next owner of Cyclic Software > will be as scrupulous as Jim Kingdon has been with regards to keeping > business interests separate from community interests. > > Not that I blame Jim Kingdon for entertaining purchasers, by the way. > He's put a lot of work into Cyclic Software and it's understandable > that he'd go for the best offer (not to mention it would be highly > hypocritical of me to complain about him selling Cyclic, since Jim > Blandy and I sold it to him several years ago!). > > Whew! It appears I've posted another novel to this list. Trae, I > hope this summary made sense, check out http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/ > if you get a chance. And CCP'ers, I hope you all felt the above is an > accurate account of our goals; please post if I mis-stated (or just > plain missed) anything important. > > Best, > -Karl -- __________________________________________ Trae McCombs _________ Linux.com | Site Manager | x@linux.com | 1 888 Linux 4 U ext 8700 ----------------------------------------------------------------- x@themes.org | x@slashdot.org | x@freshmeat.net | x@stampede.org x@slackware.com | x@userfriendly.org | x@valinux.com x@redhat.com | x@windowmaker.org From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 10:05:25 1999 Received: from minos.inso.com ([206.35.244.146]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14016 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:05:24 -0500 Received: (from bsussman@localhost) by minos.inso.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06011; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:00:15 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) References: Reply-To: sussman@red-bean.com From: Ben Collins-Sussman Date: 07 Jul 1999 10:00:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Joel N. Weber II"'s message of "Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:41:45 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 "Joel N. Weber II" writes: > I don't know what domain should be used if some suitable alternative > to cyclic.com needs to be found. In particular, CVS is a TLA, and most > TLA domains tend to be taken... cvs.org : Calgary Vocational Services cvs.net : lanstar.net, Cincinnati, OH :( -- Ben Collins-Sussman From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 12:37:33 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA14682 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:37:33 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA01010; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:34:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:34:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199907071734.MAA01010@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: voting results Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: complex nonsolutions to simple nonproblems. I don't have time to do more than post the raw results right now, since I'm at work. I'll probably propose a more detailed course of action later tonight when I get home; in the meantime, I think it would be best if we *don't* contact VA just yet, until the situation with JimK and a possible Cyclic purchase is clearer... Jim, I'll probably give you a call tonight or tomorrow, if that's okay? Here's the straight dope: varesearch: 17 mozilla: 10 cygnus: 7 redbean: 7 schlund: 2 ift: 1 rootsweb: 1 And please see the record file http://sanpietro.red-bean.com/ccp/votes.txt to check that your vote was registered correctly. Thanks, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 14:04:29 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA15081 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:04:22 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01222; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:01:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:01:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199907071901.PAA01222@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 07 Jul 1999 11:03:18 -0500) Subject: Re: We use CVS too and are concerned... (Linux.com) References: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> <199907062018.QAA05305@harvey.cyclic.com> > Of course, Jim Kingdon's announcement about a potential buyer for > Cyclic Software makes this all a bit more complicated. :-) Well, the key word is "potential". Of course, it would change the picture which is one reason why I'm encouraging the potential buyer in question to make up their mind quickly. Said potential buyer has experience in free software and seems to have a relatively good concept of how the community might relate to the business. But this is all hypothetical at this point, of course. > - maintain the FAQ (currently in FAQ-o-Matic and in need of human > attention) Yes. The biggest problem here is that Molli is running a very old (barely functioning) version of FAQ-o-Matic. Either getting Molli to update it or finding a new FAQ-o-Matic host/admin would help significantly. Then you'd need to recruit and encourage people to actually go edit it. > - organize beta-testers, so the developers can afford to take more > risks Well, with the big caveat that the shortage (as I see it) is people to fix problems which are found in beta testing (and to a certain extent process raw bug reports into investigated, reproduced bug reports), not people to try out CVS. > - help seek out new developers Makes sense to me. When potential developers see the CCP web pages there is a tendency to become complacent - "oh it is being taken care of" - but in fact the CCP is just the start, the existence of the CCP doesn't solve much of anything by itself. > - show up at conferences and talk to users I'd encourage a more peer-to-peer approach to this than a "we the experts talk to them the users" setup but that is a subtle point and one might do some of each. > - help find funding for specific new features To me, the biggest issue here is not so much how to fund features, but how to manage them. How do they get released? How do they get designed? What is the process for community input and fixing the inevitable bugs and so on? > - gather the numerous free third-party CVS tools into coherent > distributions, organized so users can find what they need Yup, there is a start at http://download.cyclic.com/pub/packages but that is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what could be done. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 17:09:38 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA15942 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:09:37 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (icri.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.100]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13043 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA07416; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:05:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199907072205.PAA07416@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -0700 To: ccp@red-bean.com From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Changes to CVS development process In-Reply-To: References: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> <199907062018.QAA05305@harvey.cyclic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:03 AM 7/7/99 -0500, Karl Fogel wrote: > - help seek out new developers You may want to consider new ways for developers to interact, as well. A WikiWikiWeb would help. The developer mailing list is one of the biggest drawbacks to getting new developers involved. It is very exclusionary in that the only ones who can post to it are the ones who are already developers. I think this is quite extreme. What about a programmer who doesn't want to devote their life to CVS but has a really good idea and needs to discuss the design implications? Are you really so afraid of being flooded by non-developers? Most development mailing lists don't seem to suffer from that problem. It is also very unclear what people who wish to donate their programming effort to CVS should do to become a developer. Documentation says that you should post many patches in the CVS style. But where? And how many before you can be considered a CVS developer? What group decides to annoint you? How do you get feedback if you aren't in the CVS style? And do you have to post all those patches without being able to discuss the design impact with other developers? Sorry, I was going to hold out on making these comments until the server issue was resolved, but I'm seeing more and more messages touching on process changes so I thought I would jump in now. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 17:37:15 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA16117 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:37:13 -0500 Received: (qmail 29069 invoked by uid 4); 7 Jul 1999 22:34:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 17864 invoked by uid 269); 7 Jul 1999 22:33:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19990707223332.17863.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 7 Jul 1999 18:33:32 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907072205.PAA07416@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> (message from Bruce Atherton on Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -0700) Subject: Re: Changes to CVS development process References: <19990706124036.G2957@themes.org> <199907062018.QAA05305@harvey.cyclic.com> <199907072205.PAA07416@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -0700 From: Bruce Atherton The developer mailing list is one of the biggest drawbacks to getting new developers involved. It is very exclusionary in that the only ones who can post to it are the ones who are already developers. I think this is quite extreme. What about a programmer who doesn't want to devote their life to CVS but has a really good idea and needs to discuss the design implications? Are you really so afraid of being flooded by non-developers? Most development mailing lists don't seem to suffer from that problem. For the record, I agree completely. An exclusive developers list makes no sense to me. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 17:58:47 1999 Received: from stargate-1.ireadyco.com (stargate-1.ireadyco.com [209.140.229.68]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16255 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:58:46 -0500 Received: from gandalf (fw.chromatic.com [208.12.96.3]) by stargate-1.ireadyco.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06413; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:01:00 -0700 From: "Peter A. Vogel" To: "Ian Lance Taylor" , Cc: Subject: RE: Changes to CVS development process Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:55:41 -0700 Message-ID: <001001bec8cb$d66656e0$35e610ac@gandalf.chromatic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <19990707223332.17863.qmail@daffy.airs.com> As long as we're going on the record, I agree completely as well. One of my frustrations with Cyclic has been the *impression* that the "approved developers" were unclear on how CVS is used on a day-to-day basis in significant development projects. (Examples: The suggestion that co -f was not a necessary feature and could remain broken or removed; the loss of reliable wrapper support, etc. All can be added back in by applying various "unofficial" patches, but then suddenly you are not running what everyone else is running and if a user downloads their own binaries they don't have the patches, etc.) I've been doing CM work for nearly a decade now (having rolled my own once, and used CVS twice, beginning with 1.3 with a bunch of home-made patches) and was frequently irritated by Cyclic's dismissal of features... I was holding off on all this until the server decision was made, but since the gates have been opened... -Peter Peter A. Vogel SW Configuration Mgmt Lead ATI Research, Inc. P.S. None of this is meant as a criticism of Jim, he's done a fine job as a one-man show at Cyclic. This is meant as a suggestion that we can do better if we manage CVS as a TEAM. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Lance Taylor [mailto:ian@airs.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:34 PM > To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca > Cc: ccp@red-bean.com > Subject: Re: Changes to CVS development process > > > Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -0700 > From: Bruce Atherton > > The developer mailing list is one of the biggest drawbacks to > getting new > developers involved. It is very exclusionary in that the only > ones who can > post to it are the ones who are already developers. I think > this is quite > extreme. What about a programmer who doesn't want to devote > their life to > CVS but has a really good idea and needs to discuss the design > implications? Are you really so afraid of being flooded by > non-developers? > Most development mailing lists don't seem to suffer from that problem. > > For the record, I agree completely. An exclusive developers list > makes no sense to me. > > Ian > From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 18:02:44 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA16310 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:02:39 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03243; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:59:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:59:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199907072259.SAA03243@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: RE: Changes to CVS development process I largely agree about the closed developer list not accomplishing much. We have opened up things somewhat since the start (e.g. devel-cvs now available read-only) but I'm sure there is more to do (both in terms of setting up new ways of working and in terms of letting people know about how they can participate). As for devel-cvs, what is left of it, seems to me that the problem is largely solving itself with most of the development discussion moving to info-cvs. If people are thinking of opening devel-cvs, there is a transition issue in the sense that I don't have time for a high-volume list like info-cvs or bug-cvs any more (and I expect an open development list would be high volume). In the long run, that doesn't really matter, because I expect to phase out of being a developer entirely, but I know some people wanted me somewhat involved for a while, and I'm somewhat willing, but only if the time and energy commitment can be kept modest. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 7 20:12:54 1999 Received: from oranje.my.domain (dial1-49.netcologne.de [194.8.196.49]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16667 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:12:53 -0500 Received: (from marc@localhost) by oranje.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA07689; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:09:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from van.woerkom@netcologne.de) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:09:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907080109.DAA07689@oranje.my.domain> X-Authentication-Warning: oranje.my.domain: marc set sender to van.woerkom@netcologne.de using -f From: Marc van Woerkom To: pvogel@iready.com CC: ian@airs.com, bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <001001bec8cb$d66656e0$35e610ac@gandalf.chromatic.com> (pvogel@iready.com) Subject: Re: Changes to CVS development process Reply-to: van.woerkom@netcologne.de References: <001001bec8cb$d66656e0$35e610ac@gandalf.chromatic.com> > the loss of reliable wrapper support, etc. All can be > added back in by applying various "unofficial" patches, but > then suddenly you are not running what everyone else is > running Indeed. I had a first look at the developers page at cyclic and the number of patches offered there looked unhealthy to me - too many different minor versions are the result. I would put this stuff up only if certain design decisions are unclear.. but ulitmately the decisions must been taken, after some reasonable time of experimentation and either get accepted or rejected. Regards, Marc From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 10:13:17 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18946 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:13:15 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA30904; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:10:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:10:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199907081510.LAA30904@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Word from the potential Cyclic purchaser Here's the latest from our "so-called potential buyer" - the second paragraph is specifically directed to the CCP. Unfortunately, it would be very foolish for us to hurry through a very important business decision, simply to avoid inconveniencing the CCP folks. I do not intend to contemplate this issue at length, but these kinds of decisions do take time. I'm very serious about making you a concrete offer, and I intend to do so next week. . . . In the meantime, you may, if you wish, let the CCP folks know that the so-called "potential buyer" is humbly requesting their patience in order to allow us to give careful consideration to our decision. You may also let them know that we are excited about the CCP, and that we would intend to fully cooperate with them if we do in fact complete this deal. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 19:42:35 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA20878 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:42:34 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23728; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: <19990708193946.B23674@postman.abisource.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:39:46 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.34 Secrecy has its place, but openness is always a lot less of a hassle. My name is Eric Sink, and I am the President of AbiSource, Inc. The team behind AbiSource is the so-called "potential buyer" of Cyclic Software which Jim Kingdon has mentioned in prior messages. Conventional wisdom would say that I am doing a profoundly bad thing by openly disclosing our tentative interest in this matter. However, we in the Open Source world are familiar with situations where conventional wisdom doesn't work all that well, aren't we? :-) For those of you who are not familiar with AbiSource, please see our website at www.abisource.com. In a nutshell, we are developing a cross-platform word processor and releasing it under the GPL. We call our word processor AbiWord, and it is a completely community-developed project. At the moment, we have multiple full-time people working on the code, and there are a number of individuals in the community who are working with us on its development. Most people who are already familiar with AbiSource know that the project is not yet profitable as a business endeavor. We do sell CDs and T-shirts, but the revenues we derive from those sales are not substantial. Therefore, people frequently ask us how we pay our bills: We started life a little over two years ago under another name, focused primarily on contracting. We support ourselves with an eclectic collection of activities which includes contracting work as well as some niche software products which we sell under a traditional proprietary model. The majority of our team has a long history together from our previous experiences while employed at Spyglass. Basically, our company is built around a set of people who formerly were the Spyglass web browser development team, back in the days when Spyglass had an office here in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. We developed the web browser which is the basis for Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Long story short, Spyglass closed its Champaign office, and our company evolved to include a number of us so-called "SpyAlums". With the recent announcement of Jim Kingdon's departure from the world of CVS, we have become interested in serving a leadership role in the ongoing development of this tool. I will not bore all of you with the gory details, but we're of the opinion that such a move would fit nicely into our current and planned collection of business efforts. We are active users of CVS, and we want to see it continue, just as do all of you. We also believe that we could bring substantial resources and momentum to the development and growth of CVS. However, we want to be somewhat more than just a provider of web space and bandwidth. Frankly, if the only thing CVS needed were bandwidth, there are companies far more qualified than we are to provide that service. [ Our contemplation of a CVS-related business strategy is currently tentative and not a firm decision. In the event that we end up deciding NOT to follow this idea, register my vote for getting CVS hosted at VA. :-) ] Rather, we would like to participate in the ongoing maintenance and advancement of CVS. Of course, Jim Kingdon is not going to turn over his business assets without getting some amount of cash. Likewise, we have no intention of paying him money just for the privilege of working on CVS. It's not that we do not value the opportunity to provide a service to the community, but after all, we could do that without Jim's blessing and without purchasing any of the assets of Cyclic Software. We're going to have to invest real money on this, so we are constructing a business strategy under which that investment makes business sense. I'm quite certain that our approach will be different than the approach Jim has used for Cyclic itself. Jim has done well, running Cyclic primarily as a single-employee firm. In contrast, our firm has a very different set of constraints and resources. We're not a big company by any means, as we currently have 14 employees. However, the difference in size between Cyclic and us will definitely correspond to some differences in the way we approach things. I don't have any firm plans I can announce, but I can say that it would be our intention to derive indirect revenues from the sale of auxiliary products and services which are related to CVS. I should make one thing very clear: We understand that CVS itself is distributed under the GNU GPL, and we will remain committed to keeping it completely free. However, we cannot commit our overall company structure to being pure, 100% "free" software. Although we keep our non-free software efforts behind-the-scenes, distinct from our far-more-interesting, pure-free-software identity as AbiSource, we do in fact perform a substantial amount of work on proprietary software even now (both for ourselves and for our consulting customers), and we will continue to do so in the future. For example, it would be our intention to develop add-on products which interoperate well with CVS, hoping that our leadership and community service in the development of CVS itself would enhance our ability to sell those related add-ons. It is certainly not my intention to let the CCP make our business decision for us. However, our future success in providing leadership to the community development of CVS would fail if that community does not welcome our involvement. If that is to become the case, I'd rather find out now, *before* we invest substantial dollars in purchasing the business interests of Cyclic. Besides, I am hoping that being open with all of you about this will instill a measure of trust which might be a lot harder to earn if your first contact with us occurred *after* the deal was all done. A little bit more expectation-setting is probably a good idea: We're going to end up having to pay substantial bucks to Jim Kingon in order to acquire the cyclic.com domain and the continuation of his customer relationships. We'll expect to have considerable influence in the development of CVS in the future. We certainly expect to keep CVS as a community-developed project, cooperating fully with motivated individuals who want to join us in the development effort. However, we will assume that as long as we're not suggesting something stupid, and as long as we earn the respect of the community with which we are cooperating, our opinion should carry some weight. We understand that being perceived as the leader of the development of CVS is an earned distinction, not a conferred one. We're a solid team with good experience, and we are quite confident in our ability to earn the respect of the CVS community. Although the AbiWord project is not mature, and still has some ground to cover before it will hit critical mass, I think we've done a pretty good job running that project as a community effort. We would look to apply our lessons learned as we move into the CVS world as well. This is not a home-run business strategy for us. We have no delusions about 'taking over the market for CM tools by advancing CVS until it resoundingly defeats all other version control systems'. We're just a small midwest company who likes to do cool things and earn a good living. :-) You're welcome to speculate as much as you like about our business strategies, but I am unlikely to want to argue the issues publicly. The truth is that adopting CVS into our family looks very much like it might make sense for us, but that does not mean I think it would make the same amount of sense for other companies. Every company is unique, and it just so happens that this particular idea seems to be a nice fit for the kinds of things that we do now. YMMV. However, if you believe that CVS would be better off to move in the direction of associating itself completely with a non-profit endeavor, then you should oppose our involvement. I respect anyone's right to hold that opinion, but I would caution against it, despite my obvious and complete lack of objectivity. The "free-ness" of software is not a sufficient condition for its successful adoption by large number of people. In the long run, if CVS does not continue to grow and advance, then its usage will decline in favor of tools that do (such as BitKeeper, for example). I'll admit that some free software projects have been able to stay healthy over the long haul despite living in complete isolation from any business interests. Nonetheless, many such projects are not so lucky. Open Source projects need a strong central coordinator, not just web hosting services. CVS and its user base have benefited from the presence of a motivated commercial player, and I believe that we have a lot to offer in continuation of that approach. Having said all of that, I am soliciting opinions. Be honest. If you don't want someone like us playing in your sandbox, then just say so. :-) If you agree with the kinds of things I've said here, please also say so. We're excited about the idea of getting substantially involved with CVS and its development community, but we certainly don't want to be somewhere that we are not wanted. For now, I will request one favor from all of you: Please don't go spreading rumors about this anywhere. I don't want to go online tomorrow and see stories on SlashDot or Linux Today about "the impending AbiSource acquisition of Cyclic". I'm taking a risk by openly discussing this idea with the CCP. I would appreciate it if all of you would help me out by not making anything more of this than is really there. We're simply *interested* in picking up where Cyclic has left off. If we go through with something like this, when the time comes, we'll be happy to deal with the public communication issues, but I currently just want to focus on the decision and the issues at hand, and NOT spend our time fending off flames and questions from the SlashDot crowd. We know how to write a press release, and we'll write one if and when we're ready. :-) Thanks for listening. I've send the request to subscribe myself to the list, and I'll be watching it. However, you should know that I'll be traveling quite a bit over the next few days. My participation in discussions will be somewhat hindered until Monday. -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman eric@abisource.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 20:14:02 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA20997 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:14:00 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10101; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:11:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:11:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199907090111.VAA10101@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: eric@postman.abisource.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990708193946.B23674@postman.abisource.com> (eric@postman.abisource.com) Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic References: <19990708193946.B23674@postman.abisource.com> Eric's message is rather long, so let me call your attention to something that was right at the end: For now, I will request one favor from all of you: Please don't go spreading rumors about this anywhere. I don't want to go online tomorrow and see stories on SlashDot or Linux Today about "the impending AbiSource acquisition of Cyclic". I encouraged Eric to reveal himself and I hope that he doesn't regret it, but I'll be the first to admit that being open has pitfalls as well as benefits. I've had good success being fairly open with Cyclic but there are any number of reasons that things might not be as easy for Eric & co. It is OK, especially if asked, to say things like "Cyclic may have a potential buyer" or "well, someone might be buying Cyclic but it isn't a done deal so there will be an official announcement if it really happens", but please use your judgment. Not because this is top-secret (if it was, Eric wouldn't have even told *me*, at my request :-)), but just because it will be easier to deal with the public once we've figured things out among ourselves, than try to deal with both the public and each other at once. Do keep sending interested people in our direction (as you have been). If you have questions, feel free to ask. Hopefully we can focus on discussion of the merits of whether the CCP welcomes this kind of acquisition, without getting too worried about tangents such as public relations. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 21:09:50 1999 Received: from cp.net (IDENT:root@puerco-del-diablo.eng.cp.net [209.228.9.46]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA21177 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:09:49 -0500 Received: (from noah@localhost) by cp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12321; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:06:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Noah Friedman To: kingdon@cyclic.com Cc: eric@postman.abisource.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Reply-To: Noah Friedman In-Reply-To: kingdon@cyclic.com Thursday, 08 Jul 1999 21:11:13 -0400 References: <19990708193946.B23674@postman.abisource.com> <199907090111.VAA10101@harvey.cyclic.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <19990708190656.999246.FMU822@puerco-del-diablo.eng.cp.net> >Eric's message is rather long, so let me call your attention to >something that was right at the end: > > For now, I will request one favor from all of you: Please don't go > spreading rumors about this anywhere. I don't want to go online > tomorrow and see stories on SlashDot or Linux Today about "the > impending AbiSource acquisition of Cyclic". Oh for crying out loud, guys, this is so amateur of you. This list is archived and publicly accessible. If you and Eric didn't want people to find out about your business plans, you shouldn't have said anything in what is basically an open forum. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 21:32:17 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org (xanthine.gratuitous.org [199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA21266 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:32:16 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:28:47 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: "Eric W. Sink" CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990708193946.B23674@postman.abisource.com> (eric@postman.abisource.com) Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:28:47 -0400 I think it would be great to have people paid to do development on CVS. I certainly hope that you are planning to work with the existing core group of CVS developers if you do decide to buy Cyclic. I would certainly be disappointed if you took on the attitude that `we bought Cyclic, therefore we can dictate what will happen with CVS'. OTOH, I think that if AbiSource makes technical decisions that the existing core group of CVS developers are satisfied with, then AbiSource paying people to do development will likely be welcomed. I'd also be disappointed if you decided to write lots of add-ons that would be useful with CVS and then not make them free. If you're selling some product which happens to do a lot of things unrelated to CVS, and 5% of its code makes it work well with CVS, that wouldn't bother me too much. But I'd rather not see people looking up information on the free CVS and see lots of information about the non-free add-ons. Obviously, some of the other CCP people will have different opinions than I do on these matters.. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 22:23:43 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA21477 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:23:43 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA03084; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:21:06 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Cc: "Eric W. Sink" Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic References: <199907090059.TAA20956@sanpietro.red-bean.com> Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: ballast for RAM. Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Karl Fogel Date: 08 Jul 1999 22:21:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: Karl Franz Fogel's message of "Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:59:28 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 171 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Eric, thanks for the email. We'll guard your secret as well as we can -- you shouldn't see it on Slashdot for at least another 3 minutes (kidding, kidding!). Actually, your email, and all the follow-up emails, ended up in our publicly-visible list archive. However, I don't think anyone except list members really browses it all that much. Security through obscurity, I guess? Let's hope. I'll give you my personal reaction, which doesn't represent the CCP's point of view (then again, there probably isn't any such thing as "the CCP's point of view"). You wrote: > It is certainly not my intention to let the CCP make our business > decision for us. However, our future success in providing leadership > to the community development of CVS would fail if that community does > not welcome our involvement. If that is to become the case, I'd > rather find out now, *before* we invest substantial dollars in > purchasing the business interests of Cyclic. Besides, I am hoping > that being open with all of you about this will instill a measure of > trust which might be a lot harder to earn if your first contact with > us occurred *after* the deal was all done. Personally, I have no opposition to your buying Cyclic. It's Jim's to sell (as I and another partner sold it to him several years ago, in fact), and the Cyclic name & contacts are good assets. CVS's history has shown that the involvement of for-profit organizations in development can be a good thing; given AbiSource's business choices so far, there's no reason to think that you guys would break the pattern. :-) > A little bit more expectation-setting is probably a good idea: We're > going to end up having to pay substantial bucks to Jim Kingon in order > to acquire the cyclic.com domain and the continuation of his customer > relationships. We'll expect to have considerable influence in the > development of CVS in the future. We certainly expect to keep CVS as > a community-developed project, cooperating fully with motivated > individuals who want to join us in the development effort. However, > we will assume that as long as we're not suggesting something stupid, > and as long as we earn the respect of the community with which we are > cooperating, our opinion should carry some weight. Here I do have some questions; please understand that no holier-than-thou attitude is intended by my asking them. The CCP has no more "credibility" in these matters than AbiSource, since as organizations neither of us has done much of anything real for CVS _yet_. Is there (should there be) any relationship between the money you pay JimK for Cyclic and the degree of influence you have in CVS development? My assumption is that as long as the patches you contribute are good, then you'll get a proportionate amount of influence. That's the way the development process works right now, why change it? And frankly, CVS development, while not moribund, is pretty low-key -- if AbiSource puts any kind of serious effort into fixing CVS bugs and adding needed features, I'm sure that you'll quickly carry as much weight as you want on the development team. No one besides Cyclic was devoting salaried resources to CVS, as far as I know. If that's what you meant by "We'll expect to have considerable influence in the development of CVS in the future", then groovy -- I would expect you to have a lot of influence as well. But if you just meant that you'd expect to have influence by virtue of having bought Cyclic Software, that's less of a sure thing. It sounds like you meant the former, fortunately. Will you just give yourselves commit access the moment you start hosting the repository? (It sounds like you want to host it, right?) Or do you plan to follow the procedure outlined in the DEVEL-CVS file and on Cyclic's web pages, whereby you contribute patches over a period of time and eventually the developers give you commit access? Not that it really matters: as you're aware, no one really has a choice about keeping CVS as a community-developed project or "cooperating fully with motivated individuals who want to join" in the development effort. Anyone who gets majorly displeased with what a given group does would probably fork the code and start their own distribution of CVS. > We understand that being perceived as the leader of the development of > CVS is an earned distinction, not a conferred one. We're a solid team > with good experience, and we are quite confident in our ability to > earn the respect of the CVS community. Although the AbiWord project > is not mature, and still has some ground to cover before it will hit > critical mass, I think we've done a pretty good job running that > project as a community effort. We would look to apply our lessons > learned as we move into the CVS world as well. Yup, you definitely meant the former. Good. :-) > This is not a home-run business strategy for us. We have no delusions > about 'taking over the market for CM tools by advancing CVS until it > resoundingly defeats all other version control systems'. We're just a > small midwest company who likes to do cool things and earn a good > living. :-) Oh, I think CVS stands a good chance of taking over the world (at least, that's kind of what I'm hoping the CCP has in mind for it :-) ). > However, if you believe that CVS would be better off to move in the > direction of associating itself completely with a non-profit endeavor, > then you should oppose our involvement. I respect anyone's right to > hold that opinion, but I would caution against it, despite my obvious > and complete lack of objectivity. The "free-ness" of software is not > a sufficient condition for its successful adoption by large number of > people. In the long run, if CVS does not continue to grow and > advance, then its usage will decline in favor of tools that do (such > as BitKeeper, for example). I'll admit that some free software > projects have been able to stay healthy over the long haul despite > living in complete isolation from any business interests. Nonetheless, > many such projects are not so lucky. Open Source projects need a > strong central coordinator, not just web hosting services. I must admit that my first instinct is that a non-profit umbrella group would be better for CVS (among other advantages, it means there's less of a connection between someone's earnings and their ability to influence the development process). Also, I'm reassured by the fact that it seems to work for Apache... I'm pretty sure that there is now a persistent volunteer interest in seeing a more active CVS development process, and generally in "taking care" of CVS. This interest was certainly sparked by Jim Kingdon's sudden announcement that he was leaving Cyclic, but the interest appears to sincere and long-lived. In that case, yes, I must admit that I would prefer that the central coordinator be volunteers, because I think community interest is now at the point where volunteers *can* provide the strong coordination and sense of direction. However, my general feeling that a non-profit group is better doesn't mean that a particular non-profit would definitely be better for CVS than a particular for-profit group. Like I said, the CCP has no right to claim themselves as the rightful heirs of the CVS mantle, any more than you do -- we're both new in town. > Having said all of that, I am soliciting opinions. Be honest. If you > don't want someone like us playing in your sandbox, then just say so. > :-) If you agree with the kinds of things I've said here, please also > say so. We're excited about the idea of getting substantially involved > with CVS and its development community, but we certainly don't want > to be somewhere that we are not wanted. > > For now, I will request one favor from all of you: Please don't go > spreading rumors about this anywhere. I don't want to go online > tomorrow and see stories on SlashDot or Linux Today about "the > impending AbiSource acquisition of Cyclic". I'm taking a risk by Well, see above about the mailing list archive. If it were just a matter of taking your one post out of the archive, we could do it; but we'd have to filter out every follow-up post, too. Short of taking down the archive entirely (which I don't want to do), I think you'll have to live with that tiny risk. > Thanks for listening. I've send the request to subscribe myself to > the list, and I'll be watching it. However, you should know that I'll > be traveling quite a bit over the next few days. My participation in > discussions will be somewhat hindered until Monday. You're subscribed now. Have a good trip! Best, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 22:37:44 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:root@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA21548 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:37:43 -0500 Received: from [206.221.224.104] (ppp104.champaign.advancenet.net [206.221.224.104]) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25072; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:34:49 -0500 X-Sender: eric@postman.csfactory.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990708190656.999246.FMU822@puerco-del-diablo.eng.cp.net> References: kingdon@cyclic.com Thursday, 08 Jul 1999 21:11:13 -0400 <19990708193946.B23674@postman.abisource.com> <199907090111.VAA10101@harvey.cyclic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:38:51 -0600 To: Noah Friedman From: "Eric W. Sink" Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Cc: ccp@red-bean.com, eric@abisource.com >[snip] This list is >archived and publicly accessible. If you and Eric didn't want people to >find out about your business plans, you shouldn't have said anything in >what is basically an open forum. Thanks for the info. Anyone who finds that information useful will also find it interesting to note that the sky is blue. :-) Seriously, folks. My request for rumor control is being over-interpreted. I *know* this is a public forum. Heck, the site manager for linux.com reads this list. The people on the free-software-business list are aware of this site and its archive, so I have to assume that the CEOs of most Open Source companies might read my post. If I really cared about secrecy, I wouldn't have sent the message. If you really think I cared about secrecy, read my post again. And read Jim's followup -- he got the point very clearly. I'm simply expressing a preference for not calling something 'news' until it really is 'news'. Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman eric@abisource.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 8 23:30:50 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA21712 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:30:50 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA03136; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:28:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:28:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199907090428.XAA03136@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Cc: "Eric W. Sink" Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Reply-To: kfogel@onshore.com Emacs: (setq software-quality (/ 1 number-of-authors)) I think I may not have expressed myself very well in that last email. What I meant to say is: Yes, in my ideal universe, a formal or informal non-profit group would be taking the lead in CVS maintenance and development. Of course, such a group would have to be very committed and active -- like the Perl or Apache groups, for example, or the Linux kernel maintainership. I'm pretty sure that the CCP, or anyway some subset of it, is such a group. But that doesn't mean that AbiSource isn't such a group too. The main difference is that Abi also plans to earn money by it, which is no real problem (heck, may even be good in that it ensures people have paid time to spend on CVS). I get the impression that Abi is pretty well matched for CVS, and have no reason to think CVS would be worse off with them as primary caretakers, if it turns out that way, than with the CCP or some other organization. So I'm not complaining; it's just that I had hoped to see the CVS revitalize under the care of a volunteer group -- for some reason, it's important to me to know that it can be done on a non-profit basis. It's already being demonstrated with other free software projects, I just wanted to see it happen with CVS too. But none of that is any kind of evidence that Abi is going to do a bad job. There's far more evidence that they will do a *good* job. So I'm not opposed, just slightly disappointed maybe... but that doesn't affect my ambition to see CVS take over the world. :-) From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 9 01:29:16 1999 Received: from mail.glink.net.hk (mail.glink.net.hk [202.72.0.38]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA22120 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:29:14 -0500 Received: from themroc.fontworks.com (root@themroc.fontworks.com [202.72.1.14]) by mail.glink.net.hk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26480 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:25:54 +0800 (HKT) Received: from [192.168.168.139] (mac-joerg.fontworks.com [192.168.168.139]) by themroc.fontworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA06721 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:22:06 +0800 Message-Id: <199907090622.OAA06721@themroc.fontworks.com> Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Date: Fri, 9 Jul 99 14:21:10 +0800 x-sender: joerg@themroc.fontworks.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Joerg Bullmann To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Karl wrote: >So I'm not complaining; it's just that I had hoped to see the CVS >revitalize under the care of a volunteer group -- for some reason, >it's important to me to know that it can be done on a non-profit >basis. It's already being demonstrated with other free software >projects, I just wanted to see it happen with CVS too. I second this. This is really just a gut feeling but I think there could arise issues where CVS developement and commercial CVS add-ons get into eachother's way. I am not sure how likely this is. In my opinion, there is a substantial difference between commercial add-ons and commercial support as Cyclic has provided it (at least how I understand it, not having ever bought support from them). Eric, as I hadn't heard of you and your company until a few days ago, there is no point distrusting you. And I don't. My point above is completely unrelated to you and AbiSource, it is more od a general point of view. Joel wrote: >bother me too much. But I'd rather not see people looking up >information on the free CVS and see lots of information about the >non-free add-ons. And exactly at this point things might get very tricky, I think. If there is a mix of free and non free parts of CVS and CVS related products, the overall impression of users or potential users is that CVS as a whole is not free. A little background: I wrote (and am still maintaining) a Mac CVS client implementation. A good part of my work on MacCVSClient has de facto been financed by Fontworks Ltd., Hong Kong, my current employer. For a few months now, work on the tool has gone completely non profit and unfinanced, though (my spare time). In a way, it already was non-profit before, because Fontworks makes its money in a completely different market (Japanese PS fonts). In this case there were no clashes of interest at all. I think. That's my feeling. I might miss a lot of points here, others might strongly disagree... Karl: >So I'm not opposed, just slightly disappointed maybe... but that >doesn't affect my ambition to see CVS take over the world. :-) Same here. Joerg From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 9 14:57:18 1999 Received: from cgns11.uscg.mil ([152.121.49.7]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA25054 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:57:17 -0500 Received: from lantd5ex.lantd5.uscg.mil ([10.20.16.58]) by cgns11.uscg.mil (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05618 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by LANTD5EX with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <3TFXKTMY>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:53:42 -0400 Message-ID: <7E47A2C771ADD211AD3C00A0C960172DA0D91F@ISCPORTSEX> From: "Lipscomb, Kevin" To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: RE: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:51:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain On Friday, July 09, 1999 2:21 AM, Joerg Bullmann [SMTP:joerg@fontworks.com] wrote: : > > This is really just a gut feeling but I think there could arise > issues > where CVS developement and commercial CVS add-ons get into > eachother's > way. I am not sure how likely this is. In my opinion, there is a > substantial difference between commercial add-ons and commercial > support as Cyclic has provided it (at least how I understand it, > not having ever bought support from them). Don't go on gut feelings. Be rational. CVS is GPL'ed. A for-profit shop might add hooks to it that would only be useful with their commercial add-ons, but those who don't want the add-ons can simply ignore the hooks (same as now). They might even try to modify the existing architecture or the existing functionality to work with such add-ons, but, as Karl Fogel pointed out, "Anyone who gets majorly displeased with what a given group does would probably fork the code and start their own distribution of CVS" (same as now). What's to worry about? > Joel wrote: > >bother me too much. But I'd rather not see people looking up > >information on the free CVS and see lots of information about the > >non-free add-ons. > > And exactly at this point things might get very tricky, I think. > If there is a mix of free and non free parts of CVS and CVS related > products, the overall impression of users or potential users is that > CVS as a whole is not free. Cyclic (in any incarnation) would continue to benefit from portraying CVS as free software. There are gobs of endeavors in this field where promulgation of free software has been overwhelmingly successful at expanding the user base for the primary (free) product and the customer base for the allied commercial products. Some examples that come to mind are PGP, Netscape Navigator, Microsoft Internet Explorer, and Linux. Have some faith that the wisdom of this course will be evident to AbiSource, too. I find it interesting that Jim Kingdon and Eric Sink have already established reputations for themselves as people who are easily accessible, eager to earn our trust, and very responsive. I don't even know who the "core" CVS developers are. They've rarely even identified themselves as such on the info-cvs list. I'm hoping that Jim and Eric will close the deal and both live happily ever after. -- Kevin Andrew Lipscomb -- CV, PGP keys, etc: http://users.exis.net/~klips From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 9 15:35:56 1999 Received: from ns.mt.sri.com ([206.127.79.91]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25319 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:35:55 -0500 Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14527; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:33:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA08785; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:32:58 -0600 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:32:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199907092032.OAA08785@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: kfogel@onshore.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com, "Eric W. Sink" Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic In-Reply-To: <199907090428.XAA03136@guanabana.onshore.com> References: <199907090428.XAA03136@guanabana.onshore.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid [ Diving headlong into this ] > Yes, in my ideal universe, a formal or informal non-profit group would > be taking the lead in CVS maintenance and development. Of course, > such a group would have to be very committed and active -- like the > Perl or Apache groups, for example, or the Linux kernel > maintainership. > > I'm pretty sure that the CCP, or anyway some subset of it, is such a > group. Maybe so, but maybe not. What is the motivation of the folks of the folks in the CCP to cause them to be more active in the CVS front than they were previously when the development was hosted on Cyclic? My thinking is that CVS is less 'sexy' to work on than kernels and WWW servers. I propose there a number of reasons, some of them being; 1) Kernel hacking is the ultimate playground and proving ground for a hacker. There's alot of glory being a kernel hacker (I'm not saying I agree, it's just my impression.) 2) CVS is a 'mature' product. For the most part it works, and it does almost everything you need it to do. Bugs could be fixed, but because it is so widely used, fixing bugs requires alot of QA. Most of the users of CVS use it for 'REAL WORK', so throwing an potentially destabilizing patch out to the community means it's hard to get people to test it. With Linux, hoards of users who have nothing better to do than rebuild their linux boxes over and over again will test patches for you. With CVS, there aren't hoards of people willing to corrupt their project trees to test a new patch, so the responsibility of testing falls upon people like Jim, who don't have enough resources (time, machines, etc..) to fully test some of the patches that come down. 3) Related to 2, the existing 'changes' that can happen in CVS are 'boring' changes that require alot more things that programmers hate to do, including test cases, documentation, and the like. Very few volunteer projects do well in this area, and all too often the documentation lags the implementation by so long that often time the documentation is worse than nothing at all. From a commercial product point of view this is again unacceptable. So, why do we believe that somehow CCP is going to be more motivated now that Jim is quitting than they were before. Many of the members of CCP had the ability to commit changes to CVS before, so what is going to change now? Is it the feeling that we're moving away from the 'commercial' model into one that is more 'loose', where it will be much less safe to grab a 'development version' of CVS for use in a production environment, which will speedup the development and allow more 'questionable' patches to be integrated. This I could see happening, but I don't see the motivation to do the 'hard stuff' of documentation, and if I were Eric and his developers, it would be hard to get motivated as the people who 'cleaned up and documented' the changes the volunteer team did to make it into a commercial product. Even Cygnus basically maintains most of the GNU tools to some degree, and when the FSF tried to maintain too much control in GCC they wrested back control with EGCS, to maintain their own sanity (as well as to allow development to continue). > But that doesn't mean that AbiSource isn't such a group too. The main > difference is that Abi also plans to earn money by it, which is no > real problem (heck, may even be good in that it ensures people have > paid time to spend on CVS). Money is a great motivator, but by no means the only motivator. However, I've found that it tends to be the most consistant motivator for people working on code, which you imply above. :) > So I'm not complaining; it's just that I had hoped to see the CVS > revitalize under the care of a volunteer group -- for some reason, > it's important to me to know that it can be done on a non-profit > basis. It's already being demonstrated with other free software > projects, I just wanted to see it happen with CVS too. I'd like to think it could be as well, but I'm a bit more cynical in that I don't see any reason the 're-vitalization' didn't occur before this event, when I see no over-riding reason it couldn't be done. Maybe this is a wakeup event for the people interested in CVS, but my cynicism won't let me believe that. :) Nate From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 9 16:12:53 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA25527 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:12:52 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id QAA03862; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:09:37 -0500 To: Nate Williams Cc: ccp@red-bean.com, "Eric W. Sink" Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic References: <199907090428.XAA03136@guanabana.onshore.com> <199907092032.OAA08785@mt.sri.com> Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: don't try this at home, kids. Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Karl Fogel Date: 09 Jul 1999 16:09:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: Nate Williams's message of "Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:32:58 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 68 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Nate Williams writes: > Maybe so, but maybe not. What is the motivation of the folks of the > folks in the CCP to cause them to be more active in the CVS front than > they were previously when the development was hosted on Cyclic? That's a good question, and the answer is that in fact things were brewing *before* JimK's announcement of his departure. Many people (myself included, but I'll name no others since they haven't given me permission to do so) thought the current development situation could be improved, and I was working on a proposal for a "development branch" of CVS to submit to the developers. (I also was -- and am -- working on several patches to CVS, but dealing with CCP/Cyclic stuff has back-burnered those the last few weeks. :-( ). I doubt we would have created as formal a setup as the CCP, but Kingdon's announcement seemed to warrant a more organized response. So that's the answer: it _was_ happening, you just didn't know about it because, naturally, the preliminary discussions were taking place among non-developers (or former developers, in my case). As for CVS being less "sexy" to work on than other projects, or the necessary tasks being ones that programmers typically dislike: I'll just say that not every one shares this point of view. I personally find CVS work very exciting, and I enjoy documenting features (once I've implemented them!). And I don't think CVS is as mature as you do. It's very useful, and it has been stable for a long time, but there's a LOT more it can do. I certainly don't think it's as mature as, say, Emacs, or Unix in general... Well, comparing maturity levels is probably a waste of time, I shouldn't even try to do it. I'll just say that I think CVS is fertile ground for coders who want to make a difference, and will be for a long time. > So, why do we believe that somehow CCP is going to be more motivated now > that Jim is quitting than they were before. Many of the members of CCP > had the ability to commit changes to CVS before, so what is going to > change now? Is it the feeling that we're moving away from the > 'commercial' model into one that is more 'loose', where it will be much > less safe to grab a 'development version' of CVS for use in a production > environment, which will speedup the development and allow more > 'questionable' patches to be integrated. Psychological factors, mainly. A lot of people had wanted, for a long time, to see CVS development become more active; it's just that there comes a moment when a movement "crystallizes". The crystallization was hastened and solidified in this case by an unexpected event -- Jim Kingdon going to Red Hat -- but it was going to happen in any case. Once a critical mass of people feel that a critical mass of people share their priorities :-), things start to get done. I think the CCP is partly a manifestation of that effect. > I'd like to think it could be as well, but I'm a bit more cynical in > that I don't see any reason the 're-vitalization' didn't occur before > this event, when I see no over-riding reason it couldn't be done. Maybe > this is a wakeup event for the people interested in CVS, but my cynicism > won't let me believe that. :) Well, you might be right. Certainly the CCP has done nothing concrete yet (except that we found a place to host Cyclic if no one buys the domain, which is a minor contribution). But anyway, it was happening "before this event", it just wasn't as visible because there was no reason yet for it to become visible. Good questions, though. My optimism persists, but with at least an acknowledging nod toward the forces of apathy and doom. :-) From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 9 16:30:07 1999 Received: from mailext02.compaq.com (mailext02.compaq.com [207.18.199.33]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA25610 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:30:06 -0500 Received: from mailext02.compaq.com by mailext02.compaq.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 9 Jul 99 16:25:16 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.10 built 27-oct-98) Received: from mail.compaq.com([not looked up]) (peer mailint12.compaq.com[207.18.199.190]) by mailext02.compaq.com with SMTP id rcv010357; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:25:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailint11.im.hou.compaq.com by mail.compaq.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 9 Jul 99 16:24:57 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.12 built 25-jun-99) Received: from exchou-gh02.im.hou.compaq.com([not looked up]) (peer exchou-gh02.im.hou.compaq.com[172.18.22.192]) by mailint12.im.hou.compaq.com with ESMTP id rcv004110; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:24:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: by exchou-gh02.im.hou.compaq.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2559.0) id <3QDNR8S2>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:24:55 -0500 Message-ID: <427351B4DEABD111A99400805F19E9BB02E7501B@exchou-prod0901.eng.hou.compaq.com> From: "Cameron, Steve" To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: RE: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:24:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2559.0) Content-Type: text/plain Nate Williams wrote: [Cameron, Steve] [...] > 2) CVS is a 'mature' product. For the most part it works, and it does > almost everything you need it to do. [Cameron, Steve] [...] I'd agree this is a de-motivator. Why fix what's (mostly) not broken? [...] > With CVS, there aren't hoards of people willing to corrupt > their project trees to test a new patch, so the responsibility of > testing falls upon people like Jim, who don't have enough resources > (time, machines, etc..) to fully test some of the patches that come > down. [Cameron, Steve] [Cameron, Steve] On the other hand, and maybe I'm bringing up a sore and off-topic subject, but I just saw a few minutes ago reported yet again (must be the 5th time I've seen it) on bug-cvs the old "HP-UX defines "UNKNOWN" (in nis.h), and so does CVS (in hash.h), and the names collide and it won't compile." bug. The usual (unsatisfactory) answer is "HP-UX shouldn't do that." Well, c'mon, it's easy enough to just change the name in CVS, and that's what all the HP-UXers are forced to do anyway. Why not just check it in? Because us open-sourcers are idealists, not pragmatists I suppose, and we'd rather suffer than let HP get away with such code...yeah. that helps. (And BTW, I don't even run HP-UX, this is just sympathetic frustration on my part.) Similarly, I've been carrying around a 1 line change to configure.in for SCO Unixware that I can't get checked in. And carrying around a change to configure.in is painful, because that means you also have to cart around autoconf, and GNU m4. So this is another demotivator. Why fix anything when half the time even the simplest of fixes can't get checked in? Well, sorry for polluting the list with my rant... [...] From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jul 10 00:36:19 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA27163 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:36:18 -0500 Received: (qmail 13678 invoked by uid 4); 10 Jul 1999 05:33:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 588 invoked by uid 269); 10 Jul 1999 05:32:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19990710053247.587.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 10 Jul 1999 01:32:47 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: Steve.Cameron@COMPAQ.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <427351B4DEABD111A99400805F19E9BB02E7501B@exchou-prod0901.eng.hou.compaq.com> (Steve.Cameron@COMPAQ.com) Subject: Re: Word from the "potential buyer" of Cyclic References: <427351B4DEABD111A99400805F19E9BB02E7501B@exchou-prod0901.eng.hou.compaq.com> From: "Cameron, Steve" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:24:54 -0500 Nate Williams wrote: > 2) CVS is a 'mature' product. For the most part it works, and it does > almost everything you need it to do. I don't agree with this. There are lot of things which CVS doesn't do. There are plenty of items in the TODO file. There are fundamental conceptual confusions, like the fact that if you check out a module, and then run `cvs update -d', you get directories which are not in that module. There is a whole list of features in BitKeeper which would be useful in CVS. [Cameron, Steve] So this is another demotivator. Why fix anything when half the time even the simplest of fixes can't get checked in? Yes. As I expect I've said before, I think the single biggest improvement which could be made to CVS right now is to find a knowledgeable developer to actively work with people to get patches checked in. It's a time consuming job, and I'm not volunteering myself (I already do this job for the GNU binutils, and that soaks up enough of my time). But I think that if nobody does volunteer for this, the rest of the CCP plans will amount to little in the way of real improvement. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 10:53:30 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA10257 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:53:05 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17940; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:50:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:50:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199907121550.LAA17940@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Atlanta Linux Showcase called Asking about exhibiting (there is some kind of "community tower" if the non-profit case comes to pass - if we need to pay for a booth it is about $3000 if memory serves). Valerie Cox, +1 404 374 1568. vcox@linuxshowcase.org http://www.linuxshowcase.org/ From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 13:34:37 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11067 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:34:36 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA22798; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:32:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:32:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199907121832.NAA22798@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Atlanta Linux Showcase called Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: if SIGINT doesn't work, try a tranquilizer. Jim Kingdon wrote: >Asking about exhibiting (there is some kind of "community tower" if >the non-profit case comes to pass - if we need to pay for a booth it >is about $3000 if memory serves). > >Valerie Cox, +1 404 374 1568. >vcox@linuxshowcase.org >http://www.linuxshowcase.org/ Hmm, might be worth pursuing, if we think there are going to be a lot of people there who use CVS and will want to talk about it. But I think we should wait until AbiSource has made up its mind (since that's presumably going to happen this week anyway). The web pages don't make clear when the exhibitor registration deadline is (at least, I didn't find it -- they just say "sign up now"), but I assume we're not pushing any deadline at this point in the summer, since the show is mid-October. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 13:50:03 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11194 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:50:01 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29291; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:47:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:47:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199907121847.OAA29291@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: [Eric.Fong@Eng.Sun.COM: Your product listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog] Here is some email about the Sun Solutions Catalog. I'm not planning to do anything about it. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:41:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Fong Reply-To: Eric Fong Subject: Your product listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog To: kingdon@cyclic.com Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: vTyA5GA+AfyPJ9KlYtjhhQ== Mr. Kingdon, My name is Eric Fong and I'm working on your listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog. I'm writing to you today to inform you of problems pertaining to the products listed below. In order to correct the indicated errors, you have two options: 1. Login at http://solutions.sun.com/editmodule/ with your company name and password to update the information online. 2. As a courtesy, you can send an email directly to me (eric.fong@eng.sun.com) and I will update the information for you one time. I can also supply login information. If you are no longer offering trial/free downloads of your software or you cannot fix the error, please use one of the two resources above to clear the FTP field. Products without a download will still be included in the main section of the catalog. If the link goes directly to a free CD request form, please ignore this message. Don't hesitate to contact our Developer Program Center at 1-800-945-6111 if you have any questions regarding our developer program or any of our offerings. Error list: Product name: CVS Listed address: http://www.cyclic.com/cyclic-pages/whysupp.html Error: A copy of your software could not be easily located at the address specified. Please provide a more direct link to the download. Regards, Eric Fong Sun Developer Relations ------- End of forwarded message ------- From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 15:30:27 1999 Received: from guanabana.onshore.com (kfogel@guanabana.onshore.com [206.69.90.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11734 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:30:27 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by guanabana.onshore.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA23050; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199907122027.PAA23050@guanabana.onshore.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: [Eric.Fong@Eng.Sun.COM: Your product listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog] Reply-to: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: more boundary conditions than the Middle East. Jim Kingdon wrote: >Here is some email about the Sun Solutions Catalog. I'm not planning >to do anything about it. Heck, you mean you don't just delete this stuff on the first glance? :-) Seriously: I think it would a good strategy for the CCP to not bother with those aspects of Cyclic's operation that are/were about "business" (i.e., earning money) rather than about CVS per se. The problem Eric Fong refers to is that the whysupp.html page now says only "We no longer offer support contracts". That may be a problem from the Sun Solutions Catalog's point of view, but there's no reason we should treat it as a problem. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:41:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Fong Reply-To: Eric Fong Subject: Your product listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog To: kingdon@cyclic.com Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: vTyA5GA+AfyPJ9KlYtjhhQ== Mr. Kingdon, My name is Eric Fong and I'm working on your listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog. I'm writing to you today to inform you of problems pertaining to the products listed below. In order to correct the indicated errors, you have two options: 1. Login at http://solutions.sun.com/editmodule/ with your company name and password to update the information online. 2. As a courtesy, you can send an email directly to me (eric.fong@eng.sun.com) and I will update the information for you one time. I can also supply login information. If you are no longer offering trial/free downloads of your software or you cannot fix the error, please use one of the two resources above to clear the FTP field. Products without a download will still be included in the main section of the catalog. If the link goes directly to a free CD request form, please ignore this message. Don't hesitate to contact our Developer Program Center at 1-800-945-6111 if you have any questions regarding our developer program or any of our offerings. Error list: Product name: CVS Listed address: http://www.cyclic.com/cyclic-pages/whysupp.html Error: A copy of your software could not be easily located at the address specified. Please provide a more direct link to the download. Regards, Eric Fong Sun Developer Relations ------- End of forwarded message ------- From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 15:40:47 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11815 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:40:45 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29643; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:38:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:38:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199907122038.QAA29643@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907122027.PAA23050@guanabana.onshore.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:51 -0500) Subject: Re: [Eric.Fong@Eng.Sun.COM: Your product listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog] References: <199907122027.PAA23050@guanabana.onshore.com> > Heck, you mean you don't just delete this stuff on the first glance? If Cyclic doesn't want to keep our Sun Solutions Catalog listing up to date we should just tell them to remove us. Granted, using the currently-ambiguous term "Cyclic" in the previous sentence may be likely to increase confusion as much as clear it up. > Seriously: I think it would a good strategy for the CCP to not bother > with those aspects of Cyclic's operation that are/were about > "business" (i.e., earning money) rather than about CVS per se. So maybe I should forward such items directly to Eric Sink rather than to the CCP? :-). From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 16:57:47 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA12365 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:57:43 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA25553; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 03:29:04 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: [Eric.Fong@Eng.Sun.COM: Your product listing in the Sun Solutions Catalog] References: <199907122027.PAA23050@guanabana.onshore.com> <199907122038.QAA29643@harvey.cyclic.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: more than just a Lisp interpreter, a text editor as well! From: Karl Fogel Date: 13 Jul 1999 03:29:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:38:02 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 43 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Jim Kingdon writes: > If Cyclic doesn't want to keep our Sun Solutions Catalog listing up to > date we should just tell them to remove us. Granted, using the > currently-ambiguous term "Cyclic" in the previous sentence may be > likely to increase confusion as much as clear it up. :-) That would be nice to Sun. Maybe it would be better to wait until you know whether there will be a next owner of Cyclic, though, and let them decide whether to cancel the listing or keep it up to date. A fuller explanation, perhaps with more seriousness than you were expecting: It would not be proper for the CCP to respond to Fong telling him to take Cyclic out of the catalog, because that wouldn't be fair to you or Eric Sink. Nor would it be proper for us to update the catalog. You haven't given the CCP any rights to do anything with Cyclic yet, so how could we respond to Sun? As long you're encouraging AbiSource to consider buying Cyclic, the CCP shouldn't do *anything* with Cyclic's business assets (of which the catalog listing is one) -- not get rid of them, not change them, not confirm them to third parties. That's not our place, it's only yours, because it might affect the sale value of Cyclic. > So maybe I should forward such items directly to Eric Sink rather than > to the CCP? :-). Not unless you've decided to transfer power of business decisions to Eric Sink even before he's agreed to buy Cyclic. (I couldn't tell whether it was a serious question or not.) IMHO, you shouldn't forward them to anyone; you should just do with them whatever you would have done if you were continuing with Cyclic. But that's your call. Now, if you *want* the CCP to handle these things for you, I think we'd be happy to, but you have to give us permission first. :-) Note that we wouldn't necessarily handle them in a way that would maximize Cyclic's value to potential buyers, however. With intentional pedantry, but slightly tongue-in-cheek, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Mon Jul 12 17:08:29 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12442 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:08:29 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09678; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:41 -0500 Message-ID: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Responses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.34 Well, I'm back. I'm sorry that I've been slow to respond to the discussion which has taken place here. On the other hand, I've also noticed that there are not very many specific issues to which a response from me appears to be necessary. If you find that I have inadvertently failed to answer a specific question to which a response was expected, please let me know privately and will rectify the situation. I've seen a number of people post their opinions and reactions here. It is gratifying to see that some of the feedback has been positive. It is also helpful to see the expressions of concern. Good or bad, I appreciate the willingness to contribute to the discussion. One person asked if we would intend to grant ourselves commit access to the CVS tree, or if we would follow the established procedure for becoming a CVS developer. That question certain deserves an answer: First of all, we would definitely grant ourselves commit access. It would seem senseless for us to host a source tree to which we are not allowed to make checkins. The broader answer is that we would generally be looking to effect changes to the way the development of CVS is done. We certainly would not want to ignorantly discard the lessons learned from the past, or the principles on which previous policies were constructed. However, development policies like this seem like they should be subject to change, and we will most certainly want to be suggesting some changes. My reading of this group's discussions indicates to me that most of the interested or motivated people will be receptive to changes in the practices used to guide the development of CVS, and some people will even welcome or pursue such changes. Some have expressed concerns about the conflicting interests involved in seeing us work on the free CVS while simultaneously developing and promoting our own proprietary products which interoperate with same. I'd like to speak a bit further about that issue, but before I do, I simply want to acknowledge each person's right to have those concerns and express them. In the end, I rather doubt we will all agree on everything. The additional explanation provided below is not necessarily intended to change anyone's mind, nor is it realistically expected to do so. I simply want to give everyone lots of information about the philosophy which I believe would drive our future choices. >From our perspective, we will view our work on CVS as both a service to the community, and as a "loss leader". We certainly want our leadership in this situation to help us sell our own related products. When users come to our site to obtain the latest version of CVS, we expect those people to see an opportunity to click on a link which will take them to another section of our site which will explain the CVS-related products and services we will offer. We expect that our actions should be entirely consistent with the goals of the current CVS user community. CVS will remain free, and it user base will rest comfortably in the knowledge that we could not make it proprietary even if we wanted to do so. The CVS code is copyrighted, and we will not own those copyrights. The CVS user community will benefit from our efforts through the availability of improvements to CVS, including new features and a development infrastructure with strong support. All of us who work on CVS will share some of our motivations in common. Specifically, we want to see CVS continue to be a good piece of software, and we want to see it continue to get better. However, our own CVS-related efforts will definitely be connected to an additional motivation. We want CVS to succeed. The better CVS is, the more people will use it. The more people who use CVS, the larger the market is for our related products and services. To that end, we would definitely intend to provide CVS itself with the same quality treatment which we would apply to our own revenue-generating add-on products or services. As others have pointed out, the CVS user community always retains the right to register their disapproval of our actions by forking the code and continuing development as a separate endeavor. It is in our best interest to make sure that does not happen, and the only prevention technique we have at our disposal involves the use of "servant leadership", not "control". I regard the word "leadership" very carefully. It is not management, and it does not involve control or authority. Many have offered their definition of the word "leadership", but I have never found any classical definition of this term to be useful. Rather, I believe the only reasonable definition of leadership lies in the application of a simple litmus test which will tell you if you are in fact a leader: Look behind you. If anyone is following you, voluntarily, then you are a leader. The wonderful thing about Open Source is that it ultimately places the control in the hands of the user. Buying Cyclic will not make us leaders. Leadership is an effect which is proactively created, and it can never really be conferred. I'm confident in our ability to do useful things for CVS and its user community, and I believe therefore that we can successfully become leaders in that community. If the day comes when we are no longer contributing something useful to the CVS community, or if we find ourselves no longer having the trust of that community, our leadership will be gone, but CVS will remain alive as long as there is a community which wants it. I apologize if I am simply stating the obvious here. I am saying these things in the hope that by putting these principles in my own words, you can see the degree of my belief in them. Some people in the community will find that belief to be completely incompatible with the development and sale of proprietary software, but I do not. The notion of a "loss leader" is a well understood and widely accepted model in the Open Source world. When it is done right, especially with the GPL as a last-resort protection for the user base, free software can play the role of "loss leader" to the increased benefit of all who are involved. -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman eric@abisource.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jul 13 02:32:07 1999 Received: from web122.yahoomail.com (web122.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.57]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA14960 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: <19990713072955.10355.rocketmail@web122.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.12.107.1] by web122.yahoomail.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:29:55 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Wesley Tanaka Subject: Fwd: Re: silly request (about jmeter) To: ccp@red-bean.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I was trying to generate a patch file for a file in jmeter (http://java.apache.org/main/cvs.html) all I did was add an end of line to the end of the file. My question (I hope this is a valid place to ask this and that I'm not spamming you all) is where would I go to report something like this to someone? Is there a canonical distribution point for CVS now that cyclic is not supporting it? By the way, if someone is interested, this below error is from: Concurrent Versions System (CVS) 1.10.6 (client/server) > > I'd send you a patch file but: > > > > > cvs rdiff -r 1.4 jmeter > > lock.c:177: failed assertion `strncmp (repository, CVSroot_directory, > > strlen (CVSroot_directory)) == 0' > > cvs server: Diffing jmeter > > Terminated with fatal signal 6 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jul 13 10:36:09 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17158 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:36:06 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA26809; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:07:30 -0500 To: Wesley Tanaka Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: silly request (about jmeter) References: <19990713072955.10355.rocketmail@web122.yahoomail.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: a Lisp interpreter masquerading as ... a Lisp interpreter! From: Karl Fogel Date: 13 Jul 1999 21:07:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: Wesley Tanaka's message of "Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 33 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Wesley Tanaka writes: > I was trying to generate a patch file for a file in jmeter > (http://java.apache.org/main/cvs.html) > > all I did was add an end of line to the end of the file. > My question (I hope this is a valid place to ask this and that I'm > not spamming you all) is where would I go to report something like > this to someone? Is there a canonical distribution point for CVS > now that cyclic is not supporting it? Technically, this is not the place, you should send to bug-cvs@gnu.org. However, if you send me some more details of your problem (the file before and after the change, and the repository ,v file), I'd like to take a look at this. Sounds like a bug in CVS, probably not too hard to fix. (It may have been fixed already, even, have you tried one of the nightly snapshots?) By the way, cyclic.com is still the canonical place to download CVS; it looks like that will remain true even though the management of Cyclic may change. > By the way, if someone is interested, this below error is from: > Concurrent Versions System (CVS) 1.10.6 (client/server) > > > > > I'd send you a patch file but: > > > > > > > cvs rdiff -r 1.4 jmeter > > > lock.c:177: failed assertion `strncmp (repository, CVSroot_directory, > > > strlen (CVSroot_directory)) == 0' > > > cvs server: Diffing jmeter > > > Terminated with fatal signal 6 From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jul 13 11:16:46 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA17374 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:16:44 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA26848; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:48:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:48:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199907140248.VAA26848@floss.red-bean.com> From: Karl Fogel To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: silly request (about jmeter) Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: all the problems and twice the bugs. Sorry about that folk; his mail was actually to ccp-request, not ccp, but I didn't realize that until after I had accidentally followed-up to the whole list. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Tue Jul 13 11:32:40 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA17499; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:32:36 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA26878; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:04:10 -0500 To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: silly request (about jmeter) References: <199907140248.VAA26848@floss.red-bean.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: it could happen to you. From: Karl Fogel Date: 13 Jul 1999 22:04:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: Karl Fogel's message of "Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:48:19 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Karl Fogel writes: > Sorry about that folk; his mail was actually to ccp-request, not ccp, > but I didn't realize that until after I had accidentally followed-up > to the whole list. No, I was wrong, his mail _was_ to ccp. I just need some sleep. :-) Back to our regularly-scheduled programm{ing,er}, -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 14:39:16 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (root@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA25664 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:39:05 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA28241; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:09:02 -0500 To: "Eric W. Sink" Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Responses References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: world domination wasn't enough -- we had to write bad software, too! From: Karl Fogel Date: 15 Jul 1999 01:09:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Eric W. Sink"'s message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 164 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 "Eric W. Sink" writes: > One person asked if we would intend to grant ourselves commit access > to the CVS tree, or if we would follow the established procedure for > becoming a CVS developer. That question certain deserves an answer: > > First of all, we would definitely grant ourselves commit access. It > would seem senseless for us to host a source tree to which we are not > allowed to make checkins. Er, okay -- it might seem senseless to you, but note that it's exactly what the CCP proposed to do itself. :-) More to the point: many organizations host repositories to which they do not commit, because they feel that helping the developers is in their interests anyway. In AbiSource's case, being programmers you obviously want to improve CVS yourselves, and you want for those modifications to be in the CVS distribution. Great! A laudable goal. In that case, why not start contributing patches? It is a certainty that anyone who contributes good patches regularly enough will be voted into the developer group (== commit access) pretty quickly, at which point you'd be right where you wanted. Meanwhile, you can offer consulting services on CVS right away; there's no need for you to have your changes in the main CVS distribution from day one. (If someone needed a change urgently, you could always give them a custom-patched version of CVS). There was a followup question regarding the repository which I had meant to ask: do you see AbiSource personnel occupying a "special" position in the developer group? For example, will new developers be proposable by anyone, and voted in by the whole group? Or would you want to retain ultimate power of decision over who gets commit access? > The broader answer is that we would generally be looking to effect > changes to the way the development of CVS is done. We certainly would > not want to ignorantly discard the lessons learned from the past, or > the principles on which previous policies were constructed. > > However, development policies like this seem like they should be > subject to change, and we will most certainly want to be suggesting > some changes. My reading of this group's discussions indicates to me > that most of the interested or motivated people will be receptive to > changes in the practices used to guide the development of CVS, and > some people will even welcome or pursue such changes. You will not just be "suggesting some changes" -- you will be making some changes, instantly, because granting yourself commit access merely by virtue of hosting the repository is already a change, an extra-procedural step. The issues, anyway, are not with the idea of change, but with the process by which change is to come about. The existing procedure for gaining credibility in the CVS developer community leaves plenty of room for effecting change. Or, if one is impatient, once can start a branch. There's no _need_ to use the back door. (As it is, I think the need for change in the CVS development *process* is somewhat overstated. The problems are not with the process itself -- which is not substantially different from the process of many other successful free projects -- but with people. The developer group simply needs new blood: more contributors and more active contributors. Which is something AbiSource could do at any time, with or without buying Cyclic Software). Some history here: When Jim Blandy and I founded Cyclic Software, we did not assume the maintainership of CVS. We created a branch ("Cyclic CVS", hence the name of the repository is still "ccvs"), and began releasing it. It had several improvements over the existing CVS distribution. After a while, everyone was using it, and we asked the maintainers of the original CVS, who were mostly inactive at that point, if they wanted to hand over the mantle to us. They agreed to (by which I mean, they stopped working on or releasing their version, and told us we were the new maintainers). At that point we stopped considering ourselves a branch and began releasing plain old "CVS". When we sold Cyclic to Jim Kingdon, he was already a CVS developer with commit access to the repository, so the only thing being bought and sold was the Cyclic "brand", not the CVS maintainership. The same group of people had commit access before and after the sale. So my concern now is not that you are buying the Cyclic brand, but that you assume the maintainership comes with it. It doesn't, or anyway it shouldn't. Jim Kingdon has in fact always explicitly denied that Cyclic is the maintainer of CVS. You could answer: "Hey, if the existing developer group objects, they could take a vote right now on whether to give all AbiSource personnel commit access, or they could simply choose not use our new repository." But the fact is that you are using money to create a "path of least resistance" for them. Wherever cyclic.com goes, they'll probably go too (although it *would* be good if they did take such a vote, as it would resolve a lot of the procedural issues). Transfer of maintainership by fiat is not the most horrible thing in the world, I don't mean to claim it is. If you turn out to be good maintainers, people will keep using your repository. If you turn out to be bad ones, you can bet there will be a branch very quickly. I'm merely saying that you could, with a little extra effort, have demonstrated your commitment to CVS the way the rest of us do: by contributing to the code. Instead, you're asking everyone to *believe* that you're committed to CVS, and the basis for our belief is to derive from the amount of money you spend to get Cyclic Software. Little wonder that people with smaller bank accounts but bigger ChangeLog entries are a bit disturbed. In a recent, prominent case of a commercial outfit becoming the maintainer of some free tools (Cygnus and certain GNU tools, notably GCC), they did it in very orderly way: they had been contributing to the tools for a long time before they were maintainers, they branched (that was GCC/EGCS), and then only assumed the `official' maintainership when the old maintainers gave up and granted it to them. I think the procedural harm done by simply _assuming_ the maintainership, as you apparently plan to, may in the long run be more harmful than beneficial to CVS. As CVS grows, a lot more people are going to be getting into the CVS consulting business. Naturally, their livelihoods will depend on CVS development being run in a vendor-neutral and consultant-neutral way -- in fact, the perception of one particular consultant keeping firm control over development may be enough to make others decide not to go into the business at all. I know it would make *me* hesitate (and I've been seriously considering going into this business again for some time). That kind of end result would be a loss, in number and diversity of available consultants, for the CVS community. Yes, the GPL is ultimate protection for the user community. Yes, anyone can always fork the code. But that's a lot of effort to go through, and AbiSource will start out with a nice initial momentum merely by having the Cyclic name. That position could be further strengthened if AbiSource took other actions to show their committment: for example, openly acknowledging that they need to show code contributions before becoming maintainers, by putting together a branch release that incorporates all the good patches sitting around on Cyclic's web pages and any other improvements they think necessary, and then waiting for the community to invest them with that magic aura of "maintainership" -- which would happen very quickly, because everyone would welcome such a release. Instead, the CVS community's initial contact with you is as a buyer of a brand, not as a developer. I think that's unfortunate, because it creates extra uncertainty, extra worry in people's minds, where there didn't necessarily need to be any. And it's entirely preventable -- you could start sending in patches even now (hey, I have been, and I don't even know when and where the next release is coming from yet). Or, if you don't want to actually do anything with the code until you've got the repository, then at least don't grant yourselves commit access without the other developers ever having had a chance to review your changes. Well, I think I've pretty much said everything on my mind. I wish you would be more careful with the process, since so many people depend on the software, and furthermore I know (from the personal experience recounted above) that being careful with the process can pay off for everyone. But if you're not going to be that careful, then good luck, and I'm confident that in the future we'll be talking more about bug fixes, new features, etc, and less about process. -Karl From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 15:26:32 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA25966 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:26:29 -0500 Received: (qmail 10828 invoked by uid 4); 14 Jul 1999 20:23:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 13016 invoked by uid 269); 14 Jul 1999 20:22:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19990714202248.13015.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 14 Jul 1999 16:22:48 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kfogel@red-bean.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: (message from Karl Fogel on 15 Jul 1999 01:09:02 -0500) Subject: Re: Responses References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> From: Karl Fogel Date: 15 Jul 1999 01:09:02 -0500 (As it is, I think the need for change in the CVS development *process* is somewhat overstated. The problems are not with the process itself -- which is not substantially different from the process of many other successful free projects -- but with people. The developer group simply needs new blood: more contributors and more active contributors. Which is something AbiSource could do at any time, with or without buying Cyclic Software). I disagree with this parenthetical comment. I think there is a process problem. I think most successful free software development efforts have a single person who simply decides what is to be done (I'm not familiar with how Apache works in practice, but I admit that from the outside it appears to be an exception). I think the CVS development community spends too much time ruminating on issues that simply don't matter, that should simply be decided by fiat by one single reasonable person (e.g., composition of developers mailing list, or rules for checking in patches). (By this I don't mean this particular issue: where and how CVS is hosted, and who is the official maintainer, does matter, and is worth talking about.) In a recent, prominent case of a commercial outfit becoming the maintainer of some free tools (Cygnus and certain GNU tools, notably GCC), they did it in very orderly way: they had been contributing to the tools for a long time before they were maintainers, they branched (that was GCC/EGCS), and then only assumed the `official' maintainership when the old maintainers gave up and granted it to them. As a historical note, that is a correct description of gcc/egcs, but not really of anything else that Cygnus maintains. Cygnus maintains the binutils because the current source code base was written by Cygnus employees. I'm not quite sure how the gdb maintainership moved from Jim Kingdon to John Gilmore, but I don't think there was any public branch. Incidentally, the GNU binutils are currently in a confused state, because they are hosted at Cygnus, and any programmer at Cygnus is permitted to check in patches, but I am in some sense the public maintainer although I am no longer at Cygnus. There are many unresolved process issues here, such as who is really permitted to approve or deny patches. Rather than worry about them, we simply keep programming. We will worry about problems when and if conflicts arise. The purpose of process is to protect ourselves from unreasonable behaviour. The free software developer community is small enough that I believe we can assume reasonable behaviour on the part of all concerned. As long as unreasonable behaviour is sufficiently rare, the freedom of the source is all the protection we need. I guess my feeling is that if Abisource wants to spend money on CVS, more power to them. I think they should be able to set up the source repository however they like, and they should be able to check patches in if they like. If we a priori don't trust them, then their purchase of Cyclic is irrelevant. We need to just pick some other host and keep going. Otherwise, let them host the repository (if they decide to proceed with this) and work with them. I don't think the fact that Cygnus hosts the binutils has in any way hurt the various small companies and individuals who do GNU binutils consulting; I don't think Abisource hosting CVS would have any bad effect either. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 15:41:25 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com [198.6.99.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA26075 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:41:23 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00956; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:38:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:38:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199907142038.QAA00956@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990714202248.13015.qmail@daffy.airs.com> (message from Ian Lance Taylor on 14 Jul 1999 16:22:48 -0400) Subject: Re: Responses References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> <19990714202248.13015.qmail@daffy.airs.com> > I'm not quite sure how the gdb maintainership moved from Jim Kingdon > to John Gilmore, but I don't think there was any public branch. Just as a historical note in case anyone cares, it didn't move from me to John, it moved from the Free Software Foundation to Cygnus. (That is, as soon as I quit the Free Software Foundation - some time before Cygnus took over GDB - I had nothing more to do with GDB. And likewise, Cygnus maintainership of GDB went through various individuals in later years, people like me, Stan Shebs, and Fred Fish spring to mind although I don't really remember who if anyone was nominally "maintainer" at various times). As for how maintainership passed from the Free Software Foundation to Cygnus, Cygnus offered to maintain it (as a contribution to the community) and the FSF accepted. The whole thing was more low-key and free of flamage/tension (that I recall, anyway - I suppose there was some), compared with all the current issues between the FSF and the GCC steering committee about who is really maintaining GCC and how it should be done. I'm sure there is a lesson in there somewhere. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 15:48:31 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA26122 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:48:27 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA28532; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:19:16 -0500 To: Ian Lance Taylor Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Responses References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> <19990714202248.13015.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: no hardware is safe. From: Karl Fogel Date: 15 Jul 1999 02:19:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: Ian Lance Taylor's message of "14 Jul 1999 16:22:48 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Ian Lance Taylor writes: > The purpose of process is to protect ourselves from unreasonable > behaviour. The free software developer community is small enough that > I believe we can assume reasonable behaviour on the part of all > concerned. As long as unreasonable behaviour is sufficiently rare, > the freedom of the source is all the protection we need. Wow. That *is* a pretty powerful persuasive paragraph, and I'm not just saying that because I'm fond of consonance. :-) > I guess my feeling is that if Abisource wants to spend money on CVS, > more power to them. I think they should be able to set up the source > repository however they like, and they should be able to check patches > in if they like. > > If we a priori don't trust them, then their purchase of Cyclic is > irrelevant. We need to just pick some other host and keep going. Yup. However, it looks like the current developer group *does* trust them (hey, so do I, process quibbles aside). So if all the current developers start using the AbiSource repository, and don't start any other repository, then it's just as if the code forked, with the Abi fork surviving and the other fork instantly going dormant by common agreement. Good enough. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 16:03:37 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA26267 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:03:35 -0500 Received: (qmail 10997 invoked by uid 4); 14 Jul 1999 21:00:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 15567 invoked by uid 269); 14 Jul 1999 20:59:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19990714205949.15566.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 14 Jul 1999 16:59:49 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kingdon@cyclic.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907142038.QAA00956@harvey.cyclic.com> (message from Jim Kingdon on Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:38:41 -0400) Subject: Re: Responses References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> <19990714202248.13015.qmail@daffy.airs.com> <199907142038.QAA00956@harvey.cyclic.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:38:41 -0400 From: Jim Kingdon As for how maintainership passed from the Free Software Foundation to Cygnus, Cygnus offered to maintain it (as a contribution to the community) and the FSF accepted. The whole thing was more low-key and free of flamage/tension (that I recall, anyway - I suppose there was some), compared with all the current issues between the FSF and the GCC steering committee about who is really maintaining GCC and how it should be done. I'm sure there is a lesson in there somewhere. Back then RMS presumably trusted Cygnus. I don't think he does any more (not that he's ever said as much to me). During the long drawn-out fights that led to the egcs fork, I don't think RMS would have accepted any Cygnus employee as the gcc maintainer (certainly Jim Wilson was proposed, even by people outside Cygnus), but there was nobody else available except Richard Kenner, and the gcc development community could no longer work with Kenner. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 16:16:48 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA26369; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:16:45 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (icri.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.100]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA03710; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01093; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:12:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199907142112.OAA01093@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:17:39 -0700 To: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses In-Reply-To: References: <"Eric W. Sink"'s message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500"> <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:09 AM 7/15/99 -0500, Karl Fogel wrote: >In that case, why not start >contributing patches? It is a certainty that anyone who contributes >good patches regularly enough will be voted into the developer group >(== commit access) pretty quickly, at which point you'd be right where >you wanted. Note that whether this is the correct mechanism for providing commit access is exactly what needs to be discussed. Further, if there are paid resources going toward improving CVS, it seems a needlessly bureaucratic step to insist that patches be provided first. As I asked before, how many patches? Sent to whom? And what formal mechanism exists for nominating and voting in the new developer? >(As it is, I think the need for change in the CVS development >*process* is somewhat overstated. The problems are not with the >process itself -- which is not substantially different from the >process of many other successful free projects -- but with people. >The developer group simply needs new blood: more contributors and more >active contributors. Which is something AbiSource could do at any >time, with or without buying Cyclic Software). Here I have to disagree completely. The existing process does not work, at least not for me. It is needlessly discouraging to people who want to offer small fixes without devoting major time to CVS. It makes the developers group appear (rightly or wrongly) to be a very closed, insular clique not open to outside ideas. There are many more open models. One that deserves consideration is to have only a couple of volunteers with commit access, but who are responsible to the entire CVS community to either commit a change or explain why a change is not commited in a timely manner. With paid resources going toward CVS development, that role might largely be filled by Abisource. Another option would be to grant commit access quite freely. Of course, giving the world commit access by deafult is probably a bad idea, but would it be so terrible if the access were granted on request and rescinded on abuse? >That position could be further >strengthened if AbiSource took other actions to show their >committment: for example, openly acknowledging that they need to show >code contributions before becoming maintainers, by putting together a >branch release that incorporates all the good patches sitting around >on Cyclic's web pages and any other improvements they think necessary, >and then waiting for the community to invest them with that magic aura >of "maintainership" -- which would happen very quickly, because >everyone would welcome such a release. I take your point, and to some degree I agree with you. As ESR pointed out in Homesteading The Noosphere: >>It is well understood in the community that project owners have a duty >>to pass projects to competent successors when they are no longer willing >>or able to invest needed time in development or maintenance work. >> >>It is significant that in the case of major projects, such transfers of >>control are generally announced with some fanfare. While it is unheard >>of for the open-source community at large to actually interfere in the >>owner's choice of succession, customary practice clearly incorporates >>a premise that public legitimacy is important. But I'm not clear on what you hope to gain out of asking Abisource to provide samples of their work. The quality will not depend on the organization but on the ability of the individual programmers they happen to have hired right now. Are the programmers who originally developed EGCS the same ones now working on GCC? Probably, but not necessarily. If they weren't, would it affect Cygnus's legitimacy of succession? The only concern I can see is that Abisource will promise to commit resources and then fail to do so. That would be sad, but not insurmountable as long as there were others who could pick up the slack. And that could also happen AFTER they wrote some patches, by redirecting those resources elsewhere. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 16:39:21 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA26536 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:19 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA28612; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:10:08 -0500 To: Bruce Atherton Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Responses References: <"Eric W. Sink"'s message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500"> <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> <199907142112.OAA01093@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: the defacto substandard. From: Karl Fogel Date: 15 Jul 1999 03:10:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: Bruce Atherton's message of "Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:17:39 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Bruce Atherton writes: > Further, if there are paid resources going toward improving CVS, it seems a > needlessly bureaucratic step to insist that patches be provided first. As I > asked before, how many patches? Sent to whom? And what formal mechanism > exists for nominating and voting in the new developer? These questions are answered in the DEVEL-CVS file in the CVS distribution. The answers are: some random number of patches (up to the existing developers, but they're usually pretty reasonable), and all the existing developers vote. A majority vote is all that's required, I believe. A "developer" is defined as "one who currently has commit access to the cyclic.com repository". I'm just posting this to answer your question, not to continue the discussion about process (to which I have nothing more to contribute, having basically accepted Ian's argument that it doesn't have to be regarded as sacred for things to work). From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 16:56:07 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA26660; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:56:06 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18908; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:53:14 -0500 Message-ID: <19990714165314.K14134@postman.abisource.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:53:14 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: kfogel@red-bean.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Responses References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Fogel on Thu, Jul 15, 1999 at 01:09:02AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.34 > Er, okay -- it might seem senseless to you, but note that it's exactly > what the CCP proposed to do itself. :-) > > More to the point: many organizations host repositories to which they > do not commit, because they feel that helping the developers is in > their interests anyway. Sorry if my wording was sloppy. As I said when I started this, we're not interested in just hosting. If you all you want is bandwidth and disk space, call VA. > There was a followup question regarding the repository which I had > meant to ask: do you see AbiSource personnel occupying a "special" > position in the developer group? For example, will new developers be > proposable by anyone, and voted in by the whole group? Or would you > want to retain ultimate power of decision over who gets commit > access? Yes, we are going to want AbiSource personnel to have special privileges, but we're willing to earn that status within the community. In other words, we're not expecting to get that status as part of the deal with our purchase of Cyclic. I shouldn't beat around on the bush on this, even though I'm trying terribly hard to cause no offense: Plain and simple, I think the CVS development model is broken. The barriers to entry are too high. People who want to add value to CVS by contributing an improvement find themselves facing obstacles in their attempts to do so. This is quite simply the wrong way to run a community-developed project. Community-developed projects live in a land where chaos and control must be held in the proper tension. I'm not advocating a move all the way to the chaos extreme, but I definitely think that CVS development would benefit from loosening things up. Chaos can be a good thing if you have the infrastructure and resources to manage it (not that I said "manage it", not "control it"). In the course of running the AbiWord project, I've learned an awful lot about handling the tension between chaos and control. Some projects are unwilling to let the community join in on the development. Others are more than willing, and actually have to invest effort in attracting community participation. It's a tricky challenge, with subtle problems lurking underneath. This is where I believe in the idea of a strong central coordinator. Most successful Open Source projects have one. Rough consensus is a lousy mechanism for chaos control. (I chaired the HTML working group in the IETF for quite a while, and the term "rough consensus" still stings a little bit when I hear it. :-)). We want to volunteer to be that coordinator. We'll earn our way into it. We don't expect it to be handed to us simply because we bought the domain name. A little skepticsm up front is to be expected. However, if we are clueful as we think we are, we certainly expect that our service in this role will ultimately be welcomed, not shunned. > You will not just be "suggesting some changes" -- you will be making > some changes, instantly, because granting yourself commit access > merely by virtue of hosting the repository is already a change, an > extra-procedural step. It's helpful for you to point this out. I'm willing to entertain the notion that we may want to do some trust-building work before we instantly break with the existing tradition. I'd prefer to avoid that exercise, and the other followups on this thread give me some inkling that we might be able to do just that. However, my prior comments about "leadership" still stand -- we don't expect to have anything automatically conferred to us, other than the specific business assets we are purchasing from Cyclic. I'm choosing to view the remainder of your message like this: It appears to contain a number of suggestions for things we could do to earn the trust of the CVS dev community, or at the very least, the trust of Karl Fogel. :-) I appreciate getting that list. We're taking these issues seriously. I hope that this message adds value to the thread rather than subtracting from same. If it doesn't, please let me know and I'll keep trying. -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman eric@abisource.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 17:15:15 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26801; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:15:14 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (icri.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.100]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13338; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA01155; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:10:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199907142210.PAA01155@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:16:08 -0700 To: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses In-Reply-To: References: <"Eric W. Sink"'s message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500"> <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> <199907142112.OAA01093@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:10 AM 7/15/99 -0500, Karl Fogel wrote: >These questions are answered in the DEVEL-CVS file in the CVS >distribution. Yes, I have read that, along with the HACKING file. And what I am offering you is how they are perceived by many outside of the developer group, and why some of us do not see the current process as a good one. >The answers are: some random number of patches (up to the existing >developers, but they're usually pretty reasonable), and all the >existing developers vote. A majority vote is all that's required, I >believe. I don't think you realize how discouraging that is. I'm going to provide some number of patches that appear to have almost zero chance of being incorporated into the official distribution (based on recent experience). I have to provide not only code and documentation but also test cases using a custom test harness that CVS uses and that I am going to have to learn. And where am I supposed to send them, again? From DEVEL-CVS: >People who want checkin access are first requested to send >patches and have them reviewed by a developer. Hmm. Not sure exactly where to send them but I guess I can bore all the CVS users on info-cvs with useless (to them) messages containing patches. And I can continue doing this for some indeterminate (but I'm sure quite reasonable) period of time. And I can hope that whichever developer is reviewing my changes finds them to be "good". I could do all this. But far more likely I will save the effort, give up on that nifty new feature I was going to add, and find out if the WebDAV versioning team needs any help. >I'm just posting this to answer your question, not to continue the >discussion about process (to which I have nothing more to contribute, >having basically accepted Ian's argument that it doesn't have to be >regarded as sacred for things to work). Sorry if I seem to be needlessly argumentative in continuing this conversation on. I just think there is a lack of understanding as to WHY there is a lack of new blood working with CVS. And if you want to fix something it helps to fully understand the problem. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 17:19:53 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26863 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:19:52 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.51]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15326; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA01167; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:15:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199907142215.PAA01167@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:20:45 -0700 To: "Eric W. Sink" , ccp@red-bean.com From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses Cc: ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <19990714165314.K14134@postman.abisource.com> References: <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:53 PM 7/14/99 -0500, Eric W. Sink wrote: >I shouldn't beat around on the bush on this, even though I'm trying >terribly hard to cause no offense: Plain and simple, I think the CVS >development model is broken. The barriers to entry are too high. >People who want to add value to CVS by contributing an improvement >find themselves facing obstacles in their attempts to do so. This is >quite simply the wrong way to run a community-developed project. I take back what I just wrote. Some people do understand the problem. >We want to volunteer to be that coordinator. We'll earn our way into >it. You've just moved a long way forward in earning the respect necessary to fill that role, IMHO. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 17:27:04 1999 Received: from stargate-1.ireadyco.com (stargate-1.ireadyco.com [209.140.229.68]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26919 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:27:03 -0500 Received: from gandalf (fw.chromatic.com [208.12.96.3]) by stargate-1.ireadyco.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10037; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:47 -0700 From: "Peter A. Vogel" To: "Bruce Atherton" , "Eric W. Sink" , Cc: Subject: RE: Responses Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:23:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01bece47$8c97a1a0$35e610ac@gandalf.chromatic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199907142215.PAA01167@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Ditto! -Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Atherton [mailto:bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 3:21 PM > To: Eric W. Sink; ccp@red-bean.com > Cc: ccp@red-bean.com > Subject: Re: Responses > > > At 04:53 PM 7/14/99 -0500, Eric W. Sink wrote: > >I shouldn't beat around on the bush on this, even though I'm trying > >terribly hard to cause no offense: Plain and simple, I think the CVS > >development model is broken. The barriers to entry are too high. > >People who want to add value to CVS by contributing an improvement > >find themselves facing obstacles in their attempts to do so. This is > >quite simply the wrong way to run a community-developed project. > > I take back what I just wrote. Some people do understand the problem. > > >We want to volunteer to be that coordinator. We'll earn our way into > >it. > > You've just moved a long way forward in earning the respect necessary to > fill that role, IMHO. > From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 17:55:44 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27103; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:55:43 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA00066; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27488; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA17719; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907142252.SAA17719@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: Responses To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (Bruce Atherton) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <199907142210.PAA01155@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> from "Bruce Atherton" at Jul 14, 99 03:16:08 pm From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Atherton writes (quoting Karl Fogel): > > >The answers are: some random number of patches (up to the existing > >developers, but they're usually pretty reasonable), and all the > >existing developers vote. A majority vote is all that's required, I > >believe. > > I don't think you realize how discouraging that is. I'm going to provide > some number of patches that appear to have almost zero chance of being > incorporated into the official distribution (based on recent experience). I > have to provide not only code and documentation but also test cases using a > custom test harness that CVS uses and that I am going to have to learn. Damn straight. We don't need people checking in half-baked stuff that almost sort-of works, at least some of the time; we've got enough of that already (PreservePermissions and wrappers spring to mind). The point of those roadblocks is to make sure that the code works, both locally and in client/server, and continues to work over the long haul. As has been said before, there are lots of us using cvs for very serious work and we simply can't afford to have the latest wizz-bang feature corrupt our source repositories; if you're not willing to take the time and effort to learn to do things "right", then we really would prefer you to not do them at all. That said, there *has* been a serious problem with patches not being incorporated into the mainline code. I don't know about any of the other developers, but I've got a real job and a life and don't have a lot of time to spend on cvs -- I've tried to check in honest-to-goodness bug fixes that are short and concise enough to be obviously correct, but I simply haven't had time to evaluate any larger changes. As Jim has pointed out numerous times, handling patches is a *lot* of work; I think that having a key maintainer (be it an individual or company) would help immensely, as would having developers being paid to work on cvs. > And where am I supposed to send them, again? From DEVEL-CVS: > > >People who want checkin access are first requested to send > >patches and have them reviewed by a developer. > > Hmm. Not sure exactly where to send them but I guess I can bore all the CVS > users on info-cvs with useless (to them) messages containing patches. And I > can continue doing this for some indeterminate (but I'm sure quite > reasonable) period of time. And I can hope that whichever developer is > reviewing my changes finds them to be "good". That's covered in HACKING (the answer is bug-cvs) along with a bunch of other stuff you need to know before you start hacking on the source. > I could do all this. But far more likely I will save the effort, give up on > that nifty new feature I was going to add, and find out if the WebDAV > versioning team needs any help. Like I said before, if you're not willing to take the time and effort to learn to do it right, good riddance. > Sorry if I seem to be needlessly argumentative in continuing this > conversation on. I just think there is a lack of understanding as to WHY > there is a lack of new blood working with CVS. And if you want to fix > something it helps to fully understand the problem. I agree that understanding is important, but I don't think the current developers lack understanding, we just lack a solution that's feasible and won't be worse than the problem. But we do seem to be exploring the solution space nicely.... -Larry Jones Yep, we'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't for Twinkies. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 19:40:03 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27701; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:40:02 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.51]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA06543; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA01297; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:35:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199907150035.RAA01297@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:40:53 -0700 To: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <199907142252.SAA17719@thor.sdrc.com> References: <199907142210.PAA01155@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:52 PM 7/14/99 -0400, Larry Jones wrote: >Bruce Atherton writes: >> I don't think you realize how discouraging that is. > >Damn straight. We don't need people checking in half-baked stuff that >almost sort-of works, at least some of the time; we've got enough of >that already (PreservePermissions and wrappers spring to mind). The >point of those roadblocks is to make sure that the code works, both >locally and in client/server, and continues to work over the long haul. Yes, I understand that is why the original practices were put in place. But that is not the ONLY way to run an open-source project. Nor, I would argue with hindsight, is it a particularly good way. The reason you have as many of those "almost sort-of works" as you do, it seems clear to me, is because of how discouraging it is for others to contribute to the code. The current process creates more of those, not less. >As has been said before, there are lots of us using cvs for very serious >work and we simply can't afford to have the latest wizz-bang feature >corrupt our source repositories; Many of us are using Linux for very serious work, too, but I can make a change to the Linux kernel a heck of a lot more easily than I can to CVS. There are other approaches to managing code releases that can provide stability, but as long as the developers are not willing to consider them CVS development will continue to founder. >if you're not willing to take the time >and effort to learn to do things "right", then we really would prefer >you to not do them at all. Oh. Ok, I'll just go away. See what I mean about the perception that the developers group is "a very closed, insular clique not open to outside ideas"? This isn't about taking the time to do things correctly, either. Other projects have shown that people are more than willing to put in some effort to do things correctly. Some effort. The problem here is that the "right" thing is just too onerous. >I don't know about any of the >other developers, but I've got a real job and a life and don't have a >lot of time to spend on cvs -- I've tried to check in honest-to-goodness >bug fixes that are short and concise enough to be obviously correct, but >I simply haven't had time to evaluate any larger changes. That is precisely why the flaws of the current process are so detrimental to CVS development. There needs to be a way for people to join in development when they have time and to drop out when they don't. Easily. Quickly. >> And where am I supposed to send them, again? > >That's covered in HACKING (the answer is bug-cvs) along with a bunch of >other stuff you need to know before you start hacking on the source. Really? All I can see is a comment that sending a patch to bug-cvs implies that you've released the patch under GPL. It certainly wasn't clear to me that that is where to send all patches. Is that for new features, too? >Like I said before, if you're not willing to take the time and effort to >learn to do it right, good riddance. >I agree that understanding is important, but I don't think the current >developers lack understanding, we just lack a solution that's feasible >and won't be worse than the problem. I'm very sorry to see you feel that way. Other open-source projects have provided a lot of evidence that there are other, better solutions. If that isn't enough for you then nothing I can say is going to sway you. If that really is the feeling of most of the current developers then I'd like to seriously suggest people consider forking the code. Let the current group of developers create their version through a nonprofit based on the CCP, and let Abisource and the rest of us work on AbiCVS using a new, more open development process. With such a basic difference in viewpoints, I just don't see any other solution. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 20:46:00 1999 Received: from booboo.iready.com (stargate-1.ireadyco.com [209.140.229.68]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA28030; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:45:59 -0500 Received: by BOOBOO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3J3W2PVA>; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:51:32 -0700 Message-ID: <034670D62D19D31180990090277A37B7041596@exchange.ireadyco.com> From: Peter Vogel To: "'Bruce Atherton'" , larry.jones@sdrc.com Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: RE: Responses Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:47:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just to amplify the comments here, let me add my $0.02. First: I use CVS for "real work" as well, maintaining over 50 configurations with several million lines of code controlled (this is for more than one company) I've used CVS since 1.3 Second: I have implemented numerous local patches to CVS to meet our needs, all of which were thoroughly tested before being placed into production. None of which were tested using the test harness that comes with CVS. A few examples: a MAINLINE pseudo tag to permit diff of a branch against the tip of the mainline. Make -f work, allow multiple -r options to specify a revision search order (a'la SOS) Support \ as well as / when specifying a module path on the command line (for developers with windoze fingers). I have also benefitted greatly from the unofficial patches of others who seem to be like-minded. Third: I don't have the time to wade through the spaghetti of SH code that is the CVS test "harness" to add my tests. Ergo: My patches remain just that, my patches, and I do not even bother to contribute them to the community because they do not meet Cyclic's requirements for a test in the CVS test harness, yada yada yada. In fact, as I read what I wrote above, it would seem to suggest that one avenue of significant improvement w.r.t. supporting people interested in becoming a part of the "official" CVS development community would be to improve the test harness for CVS such that adding tests for the tool would be easier. If someone is interested in putting some time into this sort of task, I would be willing to help and offer some suggestions (I've written two major test harnesses in my time, for testing things as diverse as a UNIX kernel and Windows GUI apps and drivers) we could even consider using dejagnu since it is already there. Finally, let me add one other comment: it is CRITICAL that whomever the "primary" on CVS is, they be familiar not only with CVS, but also with standard CM practices and how they apply to CVS. Far too often I see comments like this: Without this patch, if the -f option to get or update returns the head revision, it will set a sticky tag to the nonexistent revision, despite not having retrieved that revision. This patch changes that, but it is unclear how one would actually use the new behavior, or even -f in general. This suggests a sad lack of understanding of CM practices and how CVS is used in real life. This points to my BIGGEST complaint w.r.t. CVS development, and how just being able to hack code cleanly and hack a test into the test harness is exactly the WRONG criteria for filtering the development community, it is more important that the development community understand CM. I would like to suggest a development model more like the following: People propose "ideas" for the enhancement of CVS, the more thought-through the better, those ideas are submitted to the CVS USER COMMUNITY where they will inevitably be picked apart for compliance to the fundamentals behind CVS. Once the idea has been hashed out by the community as a whole (or withdrawn by the author of the original proposal) it gets added (unless withdrawn) to the list of "approved development ideas". The development community as a whole should draw from the ideas list to figure out what to do next w.r.t CVS (there may be a feature/bug fix suggested there that I particularly need or want, so I'll implement it first, etc.) when someone starts to work on implementing an idea, they should let the community know (to avoid duplication of effort/solicit help), once the implementation is complete it should be submitted to the "primary" for CVS along with any/all documentation changes, tests, etc. so that it can be rolled into the official distribution. The less "cooked" (w.r.t. tests, docs, etc.) the longer one would expect it to take to roll the change into the distribution, but one would expect it to get there in the end or rejected with a description of why it was rejected. Note that this discussion kind of assumes some level of paid development support (i.e. a primary responsible for doing the rollin for changes) but it could be modified to cover a purely volunteer force fairly easily. 'Nuf said. Thanks, -Peter Peter A. Vogel Configuration Management/Release Manager iReady Corporation P.S. From the comments Eric Sink (AbiSoft) has made, I would like to express my support for AbiSoft's acquisition of the Cyclic "brand". > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Atherton [mailto:bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 5:41 PM > To: larry.jones@sdrc.com > Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com; ccp@red-bean.com > Subject: Re: Responses > > > At 06:52 PM 7/14/99 -0400, Larry Jones wrote: > >Bruce Atherton writes: > >> I don't think you realize how discouraging that is. > > > >Damn straight. We don't need people checking in half-baked > stuff that > >almost sort-of works, at least some of the time; we've got enough of > >that already (PreservePermissions and wrappers spring to mind). The > >point of those roadblocks is to make sure that the code works, both > >locally and in client/server, and continues to work over the > long haul. > > Yes, I understand that is why the original practices were put > in place. But > that is not the ONLY way to run an open-source project. Nor, > I would argue > with hindsight, is it a particularly good way. > > The reason you have as many of those "almost sort-of works" > as you do, it > seems clear to me, is because of how discouraging it is for others to > contribute to the code. The current process creates more of > those, not less. > > >As has been said before, there are lots of us using cvs for > very serious > >work and we simply can't afford to have the latest wizz-bang feature > >corrupt our source repositories; > > Many of us are using Linux for very serious work, too, but I > can make a > change to the Linux kernel a heck of a lot more easily than I > can to CVS. > There are other approaches to managing code releases that can provide > stability, but as long as the developers are not willing to > consider them > CVS development will continue to founder. > > >if you're not willing to take the time > >and effort to learn to do things "right", then we really would prefer > >you to not do them at all. > > Oh. Ok, I'll just go away. See what I mean about the > perception that the > developers group is "a very closed, insular clique not open > to outside ideas"? > > This isn't about taking the time to do things correctly, either. Other > projects have shown that people are more than willing to put > in some effort > to do things correctly. Some effort. The problem here is that > the "right" > thing is just too onerous. > > >I don't know about any of the > >other developers, but I've got a real job and a life and don't have a > >lot of time to spend on cvs -- I've tried to check in > honest-to-goodness > >bug fixes that are short and concise enough to be obviously > correct, but > >I simply haven't had time to evaluate any larger changes. > > That is precisely why the flaws of the current process are so > detrimental > to CVS development. There needs to be a way for people to join in > development when they have time and to drop out when they > don't. Easily. > Quickly. > > >> And where am I supposed to send them, again? > > > >That's covered in HACKING (the answer is bug-cvs) along with > a bunch of > >other stuff you need to know before you start hacking on the source. > > Really? All I can see is a comment that sending a patch to > bug-cvs implies > that you've released the patch under GPL. It certainly wasn't > clear to me > that that is where to send all patches. Is that for new features, too? > > >Like I said before, if you're not willing to take the time > and effort to > >learn to do it right, good riddance. > > >I agree that understanding is important, but I don't think > the current > >developers lack understanding, we just lack a solution > that's feasible > >and won't be worse than the problem. > > I'm very sorry to see you feel that way. Other open-source > projects have > provided a lot of evidence that there are other, better > solutions. If that > isn't enough for you then nothing I can say is going to sway you. > > If that really is the feeling of most of the current > developers then I'd > like to seriously suggest people consider forking the code. > Let the current > group of developers create their version through a nonprofit > based on the > CCP, and let Abisource and the rest of us work on AbiCVS > using a new, more > open development process. > > With such a basic difference in viewpoints, I just don't see any other > solution. > > From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 21:12:32 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA28196 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:31 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id HAA29350; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:43:26 -0500 To: Bruce Atherton Cc: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones), ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Responses References: <199907142210.PAA01155@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> <199907150035.RAA01297@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: it's all fun and games, until somebody tries to edit a file. From: Karl Fogel Date: 15 Jul 1999 07:43:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: Bruce Atherton's message of "Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:40:53 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Bruce Atherton writes: > If that really is the feeling of most of the current developers then I'd > like to seriously suggest people consider forking the code. Let the current > group of developers create their version through a nonprofit based on the > CCP, and let Abisource and the rest of us work on AbiCVS using a new, more > open development process. > > With such a basic difference in viewpoints, I just don't see any other > solution. I don't really want to continue the thread that brought this up, but Bruce's suggestion needs a response: If the CVS developers themselves, or some substantial subset of them, say they don't want to work in AbiSource's repository, then the CCP should probably find a new home for them and support them in whatever ways necessary to get them coding. However, I hope no current developer wants to do that. I personally am not prepared to start or participate in a fork right now; I think all the evidence is that AbiSource is going to be a good maintainer, and I plan to be sending my patches over there and/or joining the development team if possible. Dis-unifying CVS is a big step, and it's not warranted over a mere procedural quibble. If AbiSource does something that takes the actual *code* in a direction people don't like, *then* people should start a fork, with the CCP's help or not. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 21:36:48 1999 Received: from mail.rdc2.occa.home.com (ha1.rdc2.occa.home.com [24.2.8.66]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA28383; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:36:48 -0500 Received: from cx63989a ([24.1.136.62]) by mail.rdc2.occa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990715023400.HDYV18261.mail.rdc2.occa.home.com@cx63989a>; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:34:00 -0700 From: "Preston L. Bannister" To: "Bruce Atherton" , "Larry Jones" Cc: , Subject: RE: Responses Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:34:00 -0700 Message-ID: <005801bece6a$7ef39360$3e880118@msnv1.occa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199907150035.RAA01297@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Larry Jones wrote: > Damn straight. We don't need people checking in half-baked stuff that > almost sort-of works, at least some of the time; [snip] > As has been said before, there are lots of us using cvs for very serious > work and we simply can't afford to have the latest wizz-bang feature > corrupt our source repositories; [snip] > if you're not willing to take the time > and effort to learn to do things "right", then we really would prefer > you to not do them at all. [snip] > I don't know about any of the > other developers, but I've got a real job and a life and don't have a > lot of time to spend on cvs -- I've tried to check in honest-to-goodness > bug fixes that are short and concise enough to be obviously correct, but > I simply haven't had time to evaluate any larger changes. [snip] > Like I said before, if you're not willing to take the time and effort to > learn to do it right, good riddance. OK, I think (perhaps unintentionally :) you've described the problem, and indirectly described the solution. There is a group of people (hi Larry :) who need CVS to be stable. Naturally you are conservative about what goes into CVS. You don't have time to review large changes, so large changes basically don't happen. Now you may have noticed what happens with other open source projects. When something new and large gets added, it often does not work perfectly. Often someone other than the original author of a change finds and submits fixes for what doesn't work. This isn't happening, so the "process" for CVS is broken. There is another group of people who want to move CVS forward more quickly. Naturally there is a greater degree of risk involved. Basically just about anything that seems reasonable gets... ...added and redistributed... ...widely tested... ...and fixed by whomever has time. So what we need is two branches of CVS development. To follow the convention of other projects we could have "development" (perhaps odd-numbered) and "stable" (perhaps even-numbered) releases. Both development and stable branches *could* be in the same repository, but if I were wearing Larry's hat I would be much more comfortable if the repositories were separate (but Larry should speak for himself :). I would suggest that the "stable" branch (hosted where?) retain the current CVS 1.* version numbers. The "development" branch (likely hosted by AbiSource) would be the source of future CVS 2.* version releases. Someday there will be CVS 3.* (stable) release when the large changes stabilize ... but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Very likely we won't reach this point for at least a year. Surely some will (for good reason) object to "splitting" the development of CVS in this way. It should be obvious by that the split already exists, and we need to make the best of it. Everyone involved is interested in advancing CVS. Let's agree to disagree (where it makes sense), recognise the groups with different needs and goals, and work together please :). From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 21:59:47 1999 Received: from xanthine.gratuitous.org (xanthine.gratuitous.org [199.232.39.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA28490; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:59:45 -0500 Received: from nemo by xanthine.gratuitous.org with local; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:56:43 -0400 From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: "Preston L. Bannister" CC: , , , Subject: Re: Responses Message-Id: Sender: "Joel N. Weber II" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:56:43 -0400 It sounds to me like the real problem with CVS development is not the particular process required for getting changes into the main branch, but the fact that there is apparently a lack of people who are really knowlegeable who have the time to do all the desired work on CVS. The process the CVS developers have choosen would be just fine if some of the developers were commited to doing something that outsiders consider reasonable when patches get submitted. As far as I can tell, it is impossible for any free software project to be developed well if there isn't at least one key developer who has a very good understanding of the software and how to modify it, and time to maintain it. I am inclined to think that it would be best if the existing CVS developers looked at some of the patches from some of the AbiSource developers before the AbiSource developers get commit access. It can take a lot of effort to really understand all of the subtlies of something as complex as CVS, and having the existing developers sanity check the work of new developers may help to improve the stability of CVS if the new developers get overzealous. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 14 23:17:28 1999 Received: from mail.rdc2.occa.home.com (ha1.rdc2.occa.home.com [24.2.8.66]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28855; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:17:27 -0500 Received: from cx63989a ([24.1.136.62]) by mail.rdc2.occa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990715041440.IOMW18261.mail.rdc2.occa.home.com@cx63989a>; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:14:40 -0700 From: "Preston L. Bannister" To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: Subject: RE: Responses Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:14:40 -0700 Message-ID: <005b01bece78$8f04b3c0$3e880118@msnv1.occa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal From: Joel N. Weber II > It sounds to me like the real problem with CVS development is not the > particular process required for getting changes into the main branch, > but the fact that there is apparently a lack of people who are really > knowlegeable who have the time to do all the desired work on CVS. The > process the CVS developers have choosen would be just fine if some of > the developers were commited to doing something that outsiders > consider reasonable when patches get submitted. Your mindset is showing - "outsiders" ?? :) > As far as I can tell, it is impossible for any free software project > to be developed well if there isn't at least one key developer who has > a very good understanding of the software and how to modify it, and > time to maintain it. > > I am inclined to think that it would be best if the existing CVS > developers looked at some of the patches from some of the AbiSource > developers before the AbiSource developers get commit access. It can > take a lot of effort to really understand all of the subtlies of > something as complex as CVS, and having the existing developers sanity > check the work of new developers may help to improve the stability of > CVS if the new developers get overzealous. The tension here is that you want to maintain control (for good reasons), but "you" (in the sense of the "stable" CVS developers) don't really have enough free time to review everything that comes in. My vote is to label a "development" version of CVS and trust that AbiSource (and anyone else offering changes) is competent until proven otherwise. You are right that there needs to be one or a few appointed dictators. Given that the key people likely won't have any more free time :), their involvement might consist only of creating branches for changes, merging changes from the branch when stable, and deciding when to abandon a branch when things don't work out. Otherwise if you want commit access (on the "development" branch), all you have to do is say "please" :). From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 08:52:25 1999 Received: from mailext02.compaq.com (mailext02.compaq.com [207.18.199.33]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA31297; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:52:23 -0500 Received: from mailext02.compaq.com by mailext02.compaq.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Thu, 15 Jul 99 08:34:49 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.10 built 27-oct-98) Received: from mail.compaq.com([not looked up]) (peer mailint12.compaq.com[207.18.199.190]) by mailext02.compaq.com with SMTP id rcv013174; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailint11.im.hou.compaq.com by mail.compaq.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Thu, 15 Jul 99 08:34:17 -0500 (CDT) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.12 built 25-jun-99) Received: from exchou-gh02.cca.cpqcorp.net([not looked up]) (peer timeout_dns.compaq.com[16.110.248.202]) by mailint12.im.hou.compaq.com with ESMTP id rcv002100; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: by EXCHOU-GH02 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2559.0) id <391ZH9J0>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:11 -0500 Message-ID: <427351B4DEABD111A99400805F19E9BB02E75037@exchou-prod0901.eng.hou.compaq.com> From: "Cameron, Steve" To: "'Bruce Atherton'" , larry.jones@sdrc.com Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: RE: Responses Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2559.0) Content-Type: text/plain > At 06:52 PM 7/14/99 -0400, Larry Jones wrote: > >Bruce Atherton writes: > >> I don't think you realize how discouraging that is. > > > >Damn straight. We don't need people checking in half-baked stuff that > >almost sort-of works, at least some of the time; we've got enough of > >that already (PreservePermissions and wrappers spring to mind). The > >point of those roadblocks is to make sure that the code works, both > >locally and in client/server, and continues to work over the long haul. > > Yes, I understand that is why the original practices were put in place. > But > that is not the ONLY way to run an open-source project. Nor, I would argue > with hindsight, is it a particularly good way. [Cameron, Steve] Ok, sanity.sh is definietly kind of weird, the first time you see it. But once you figure it out it's not that bad, and, I think it does do a lot of good. Overall, I like having sanity.sh and I like that test cases for bug fixes get added, if it makes sense. (BTW, for changes to say, Makefiles, configure.in, there's no way to add a test to sanity.sh, right?) Perhaps one thing that might help is a sanity.sh how-to. Maybe I'll try writing one, not that I'm an expert on sanity.sh Also, as I recall there's one giant section with all the tests inline. Seems to me use of shell functions to separate tests out could make things less confusing. (I once submitted a patch with an additional test separated out into a shell function, but it got re-written inline, in the name of consistency..I was told that I could rewrite all of sanity.sh to use shell functions instead of inline tests if I wanted to, and submit THAT as a patch.. Hmm. Let me think about that for 0.5 usecs. No thanks. .I have too much respect for the developer who did the rewrite to quote the R.W. Emerson line about consistency. though it did spring to my little mind. heh, heh. > [Cameron, Steve] [..] From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 10:24:43 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA31804; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:24:42 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22563; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07403; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA17954; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: Responses To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (Bruce Atherton) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <199907150035.RAA01297@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> from "Bruce Atherton" at Jul 14, 99 05:40:53 pm From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Atherton writes: > > Yes, I understand that is why the original practices were put in place. But > that is not the ONLY way to run an open-source project. Nor, I would argue > with hindsight, is it a particularly good way. I agree that it's not the only way, but I think it *is* a particularly good way. As others have said, the problem is not so much with the process as with its current implementation. The main problem, as I see it, is not having a primary developer. Without that, no one is responsible for anything and the process appears to be vague, arbitrary, and ineffective. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it doesn't just appear to be those things, it *IS* those things. > The reason you have as many of those "almost sort-of works" as you do, it > seems clear to me, is because of how discouraging it is for others to > contribute to the code. The current process creates more of those, not less. I disagree; I think the current process does help to prevent them by insisting on test cases that can be run automatically both locally and client/server to make sure that the code works and continues to work with future changes. I'm not sure how widely known it is, but the current development version in run through the entire test suite every night on five different platforms (Linux, SunOS, HP-UX, IRIX, and AIX) with the results sent to the developers so they can fix anything they've unintentionally broken. Where I do agree with you, though, is that the process as currently implemented does discourage people and thus hinders getting such things fixed. > Many of us are using Linux for very serious work, too, but I can make a > change to the Linux kernel a heck of a lot more easily than I can to CVS. > There are other approaches to managing code releases that can provide > stability, but as long as the developers are not willing to consider them > CVS development will continue to founder. I never said I wasn't willing to consider alternatives, I'm just trying to emphasize that there are good reasons for the existing process and they need to be considered when discussing changes. The current process already recognizes the need for experimental development as well as stability: that's why there's a development version, interim releases, and official releases. But it also recognizes that, without anyone "in charge", every developer has to take responsibility for their changes: making sure they work on all the different platforms, making sure the documentation gets updated as needed, making sure tests get added to the test suite so that later development doesn't break things unintentionally, etc. That in turn demands limiting the development group to people who have demonstrated a sufficient degree of responsibility. If we want to open up the development group (and we do), then we have to make sure that those things still get done, or the code will quickly deteriorate to the point of unusability. The open-source development methodology says that with enough eyes, all bugs are obvious and easily fixed. Well, right now, cvs doesn't have anywhere near enough eyes, and while opening up the process will undoubtedly increase the number, it still won't be anywhere near enough, so there still needs to be some control. It seems to me that having a primary developer who is at least responsible for handling bug reports and patches would be a very big step in the right direction. None of the existing developers have been willing to step into that role; if AbiSource is, and it sounds like they are, then I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and support them. -Larry Jones My upbringing is filled with inconsistent messages. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 10:43:19 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA31907 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:43:17 -0500 Received: (qmail 15704 invoked by uid 4); 15 Jul 1999 15:40:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 17087 invoked by uid 269); 15 Jul 1999 15:40:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19990715154024.17086.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 15 Jul 1999 11:40:24 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: larry.jones@sdrc.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> (larry.jones@sdrc.com) Subject: Re: Responses References: <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:21:42 -0400 (EDT) From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) The open-source development methodology says that with enough eyes, all bugs are obvious and easily fixed. Well, right now, cvs doesn't have anywhere near enough eyes, and still won't be anywhere near enough, so there still needs to be some control. In my understanding of Eric Raymond's argument, he isn't saying that enough eyes all bugs are easily fixed; he's saying that with enough eyes, all bugs are easily noticed. Actually fixing them is harder. I see lots of bug reports repeated again and again. That suggests that there are plenty of eyes looking at CVS. The problem is that the bugs are not getting fixed. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 12:40:21 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA32568 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:40:20 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04485; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19195; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA18391; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907151736.NAA18391@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: Responses To: ian@airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <19990715154024.17086.qmail@daffy.airs.com> from "Ian Lance Taylor" at Jul 15, 99 11:40:24 am From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Lance Taylor writes: > > I see lots of bug reports repeated again and again. That suggests > that there are plenty of eyes looking at CVS. The problem is that the > bugs are not getting fixed. >From what I've seen, the bugs usually *are* getting fixed, but they're fixed in an interim release or the current development version and the people reporting them (over and over again) are running an official release version, and not always even the most recent one. Having releases more often might help, but not if people don't get it and use it. Having a more up-to-date FAQ might help too, as would having a generally-accessible bug database. -Larry Jones Somebody's always running my life. I never get to do what I want to do. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 12:50:22 1999 Received: from bugs.ata-sd.com (IDENT:root@bugs.ata-sd.com [207.114.143.217]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA32643; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:50:14 -0500 Received: from ata-sd.com (speedy.paso.ata-sd.com [172.16.2.1]) by bugs.ata-sd.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09222; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:47:24 -0700 Message-ID: <378E1F2C.6903AF73@ata-sd.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:49:32 -0700 From: Steven Roberts X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Atherton CC: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: Responses References: <"Eric W. Sink"'s message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500"> <19990712170540.F26568@postman.abisource.com> <199907142112.OAA01093@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Atherton wrote: > Another option would be to grant commit access quite freely. Of course, > giving the world commit access by deafult is probably a bad idea, but would > it be so terrible if the access were granted on request and rescinded on > abuse? (first off sorry for the slow response, we were rearranging the office yesterday) I would highly recommend against a complete anything goes development model. I have been looking at a different Open Source project over the past few months. It is basically run under the premise of if you show up and ask you get commit access. This has lead to a huge amount of confusion/conflicts in the source tree. The person who has become the de-facto main contibuter (becuase he has the most time to commit changes) really shouldn't be allowed to make the changes he is (they are causing great instability, lack of compatibility, etc). CVS (from my impression over the past months) is on the other end with being restrictive on who gets commit access. This seems to have lead to some stable and useful patches not yet being integrated into the main trunk. I personally think loosing up the commit access a little would be good for CVS. But I don't want us to head to a anything goes model. The project I mentioned above is dying becuase of it (most of the competent main developers are creating private local branches just so they can have code that compiles again. Regards, Steve Roberts From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 12:57:36 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA32745; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:57:35 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (icri.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.100]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09201; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01990; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:52:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199907151752.KAA01990@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:58:19 -0700 To: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> References: <199907150035.RAA01297@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Larry Jones wrote: >But it also recognizes that, without anyone "in >charge", every developer has to take responsibility for their changes: >making sure they work on all the different platforms, making sure the >documentation gets updated as needed, making sure tests get added to the >test suite so that later development doesn't break things >unintentionally, etc. Even with someone in charge, these are all important responsibilities that come to anyone with the ability to check in code. > That in turn demands limiting the development >group to people who have demonstrated a sufficient degree of >responsibility. Or you could use "innocent until proven guilty", as Mozilla does. There, if someone checks in code that breaks the automated build without fixing it in a timely manner, they lose the right to check in code. The same could be true of people who check in code that fails the test suite. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 13:03:06 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00339 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:03:05 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (icri.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.100]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA09976; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01999; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:58:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:04:01 -0700 To: Ian Lance Taylor , larry.jones@sdrc.com From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses Cc: ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <19990715154024.17086.qmail@daffy.airs.com> References: <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:40 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: >In my understanding of Eric Raymond's argument, he isn't saying that >enough eyes all bugs are easily fixed; he's saying that with enough >eyes, all bugs are easily noticed. Actually fixing them is harder. Just to be clear, here is the quote from CATB: 8. Given a large enough beta-tester and co-developer base, almost every problem will be characterized quickly and the fix obvious to someone. Or, less formally, ``Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' I dub this: ``Linus's Law''. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 13:08:02 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA00397 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:08:01 -0500 Received: (qmail 16601 invoked by uid 4); 15 Jul 1999 18:05:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 17434 invoked by uid 269); 15 Jul 1999 18:05:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19990715180506.17433.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 15 Jul 1999 14:05:06 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca CC: larry.jones@sdrc.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> (message from Bruce Atherton on Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:04:01 -0700) Subject: Re: Responses References: <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:04:01 -0700 From: Bruce Atherton At 11:40 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: >In my understanding of Eric Raymond's argument, he isn't saying that >enough eyes all bugs are easily fixed; he's saying that with enough >eyes, all bugs are easily noticed. Actually fixing them is harder. Just to be clear, here is the quote from CATB: 8. Given a large enough beta-tester and co-developer base, almost every problem will be characterized quickly and the fix obvious to someone. Or, less formally, ``Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' I dub this: ``Linus's Law''. I guess I was giving Eric Raymond a bit too much credit. I think that quote is simply false. It's true of simple bugs, but it's hardly true of complex ones. CVS does have some complex bugs (which might alternatively be characterized as poor interface decisions). Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 13:25:21 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00546 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:25:20 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA09123; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25485; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA18545; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907151822.OAA18545@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: Responses To: ian@airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <19990715180506.17433.qmail@daffy.airs.com> from "Ian Lance Taylor" at Jul 15, 99 02:05:06 pm From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Lance Taylor writes: > > I guess I was giving Eric Raymond a bit too much credit. I think that > quote is simply false. It's true of simple bugs, but it's hardly true > of complex ones. CVS does have some complex bugs (which might > alternatively be characterized as poor interface decisions). Well there are a couple of sides to this ("Understanding is a three- edged sword."). Just like the infinite number of monkeys eventually reproducing the works of Shakespeare, given enough eyes, the solution to any problem *is* bound to be obvious to someone. Getting *enough* eyes is a problem, as is convincing everyone else that the solution that is obvious to you is the right solution as opposed to the crack-brained scheme that that other nut case says is the obvious solution. (After all, every problem has a simple, obvious solution which is also wrong.) -Larry Jones Physical education is what you learn from having your face in someone's armpit right before lunch. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 13:48:52 1999 Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00749 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:48:51 -0500 Received: from hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca [137.82.152.51]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16919; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galiano by hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA02063; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:44:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199907151844.LAA02063@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> X-Sender: bruce@flair.law.ubc.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:49:48 -0700 To: Ian Lance Taylor , ccp@red-bean.com From: Bruce Atherton Subject: Re: Responses In-Reply-To: <19990715180506.17433.qmail@daffy.airs.com> References: <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:05 PM 7/15/99 -0400, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: >I guess I was giving Eric Raymond a bit too much credit. I think that >quote is simply false. It's true of simple bugs, but it's hardly true >of complex ones. CVS does have some complex bugs (which might >alternatively be characterized as poor interface decisions). Actually he is paraphrasing Linus. Another quote from CATB. :My original formulation was that every problem ``will be transparent to :somebody''. Linus demurred that the person who understands and :fixes the problem is not necessarily or even usually the person who :first characterizes it. ``Somebody finds the problem,'' he says, ``and :somebody else understands it. And I'll go on record as saying that :finding it is the bigger challenge.'' But the point is that both things :tend to happen quickly. : :Here, I think, is the core difference underlying the cathedral-builder :and bazaar styles. In the cathedral-builder view of programming, bugs :and development problems are tricky, insidious, deep phenomena. It :takes months of scrutiny by a dedicated few to develop confidence that :you've winkled them all out. Thus the long release intervals, and the :inevitable disappointment when long-awaited releases are not perfect. : :In the bazaar view, on the other hand, you assume that bugs are :generally shallow phenomena -- or, at least, that they turn shallow pretty :quick when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers pounding on :every single new release. Accordingly you release often in order to get :more corrections, and as a beneficial side effect you have less to lose :if an occasional botch gets out the door. This quote may reflect our basic differences of opinion on process. Those who want to keep the developers circle fairly closed seem to be arguing for maintaining a more cathedral-building approach. Those who want to see it opened up prefer the bazaar view. Now some of the points people have been making make more sense to me. If you don't accept that many eyeballs make all bugs shallow, I can see why you would think opening up development to all comers would be ludicrous. Rather than have me continue quoting piecemeal, here is the URL for the specific page which discusses lesson 8: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar-4.html You may also want to read CATB from the beginning, as well as the followup papers Homesteading the Noosphere and The Magic Cauldron. You can find them here: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/ From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 14:26:30 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA01079 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:26:28 -0500 Received: (qmail 17208 invoked by uid 4); 15 Jul 1999 19:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 30889 invoked by uid 269); 15 Jul 1999 19:23:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990715192331.30888.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 15 Jul 1999 15:23:31 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907151844.LAA02063@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> (message from Bruce Atherton on Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:49:48 -0700) Subject: Re: Responses References: <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151521.LAA17954@thor.sdrc.com> <199907151758.KAA01999@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> <199907151844.LAA02063@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:49:48 -0700 From: Bruce Atherton At 02:05 PM 7/15/99 -0400, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: >I guess I was giving Eric Raymond a bit too much credit. I think that >quote is simply false. It's true of simple bugs, but it's hardly true >of complex ones. CVS does have some complex bugs (which might >alternatively be characterized as poor interface decisions). Actually he is paraphrasing Linus. Another quote from CATB. :My original formulation was that every problem ``will be transparent to :somebody''. Linus demurred that the person who understands and :fixes the problem is not necessarily or even usually the person who :first characterizes it. ``Somebody finds the problem,'' he says, ``and :somebody else understands it. And I'll go on record as saying that :finding it is the bigger challenge.'' But the point is that both things :tend to happen quickly. I agree with all of this. It does not follow that the correct fix will be obvious to anyone. Linus didn't say that, and I'm sure he wouldn't. Some bugs are hard to fix. This quote may reflect our basic differences of opinion on process. Those who want to keep the developers circle fairly closed seem to be arguing for maintaining a more cathedral-building approach. Those who want to see it opened up prefer the bazaar view. Now some of the points people have been making make more sense to me. If you don't accept that many eyeballs make all bugs shallow, I can see why you would think opening up development to all comers would be ludicrous. I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say ``our basic differences of opinion.'' I personally am all for opening up the development process. Rather than have me continue quoting piecemeal, here is the URL for the specific page which discusses lesson 8: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar-4.html I have always said that I feel that Eric Raymond makes good points in this essay, but he makes the wrong main point. I believe the main thing that makes a free software project succeed is a good maintainer. Cathedral vs. bazaar are just points on a continuum. I agree that bazaar is generally better for most projects. The GNU binutils (yes, an FSF project) were making daily snapshots available to anybody who asked before Eric Raymond's paper came out (Ken Raeburn set this up, not me). However, turning a cathedral into a bazaar does not automatically lead to success. The central maintainer is more important than any cathedral vs. bazaar decision. Both cathedral and bazaar have canonical failure modes: cathedral fails because the pace of development is too slow, and bazaar fails because the package becomes fragmented and incomprehensible. The central maintainer must steer a path between these hazards. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 15 14:46:29 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01283 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:46:28 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16542; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28352; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA18794; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907151943.PAA18794@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: Responses To: bruce@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca (Bruce Atherton) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Cc: ian@airs.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: <199907151844.LAA02063@hagbard.flair.law.ubc.ca> from "Bruce Atherton" at Jul 15, 99 11:49:48 am From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Atherton writes: > > This quote may reflect our basic differences of opinion on process. Those > who want to keep the developers circle fairly closed seem to be arguing for > maintaining a more cathedral-building approach. Those who want to see it > opened up prefer the bazaar view. Now some of the points people have been > making make more sense to me. If you don't accept that many eyeballs make > all bugs shallow, I can see why you would think opening up development to > all comers would be ludicrous. At least in my case, it's more a question of bugs vs features or enhancements. I'm a big believer in the bazaar approach to fixing bugs, but I'm afraid that the bazaar approach to building would result in something more like the Winchester Mystery House (see http://www.winchestermysteryhouse.com/tours.html) than a cathedral. The current process is an attempt to combine the best of both approaches -- publish the source so the bazaar can find and fix the bugs, but limit check-ins to the builders who understand and are willing to work with the architect. -Larry Jones Even my FRIENDS don't do what I want. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 16 18:20:34 1999 Received: from newfax.evokesoft.com (newfax.evokesoft.com [206.80.26.126]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA09864 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:20:33 -0500 Received: from anchor (anchor.evokesoft.com [206.80.26.128]) by newfax.evokesoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 3P4MT5JM; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:08:42 -0700 Received: from fletcher by anchor with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 115HEI-0002w1-00; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:17:22 -0700 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Support? From: Morgan Fletcher Organization: Evoke Software http://www.evokesoft.com Date: 16 Jul 1999 16:17:20 -0700 Message-ID: <4f673ktcan.fsf@anchor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me> Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070094 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.94) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I apologize for the broad distribution, but I believe I'm talking to the right people. I'm the CM guy at a small software company. I've written an evaluation of four SCM toolsets: Rational, Perforce, Razor and 'GNU'. GNU in this case being CVS, GNATS and make. Part of my proposal weighs cost, time and risk, and I'd like to be able to show some information about training. (Hi Jim.) Can you direct me to any entity selling training & support for these tools, specifically CVS? My only thought was Cygnus, but they don't appear to do any training, and their focus is on gcc. Thanks for your time, morgan -- Morgan Fletcher Release Engineering Manager Evoke Software - http://www.evokesoft.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 16 18:31:29 1999 Received: from harvey.cyclic.com (IDENT:kingdon@harvey [198.6.99.2] (may be forged)) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA09937 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:31:27 -0500 Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by harvey.cyclic.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08067; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:28:43 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:28:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199907162328.TAA08067@harvey.cyclic.com> From: Jim Kingdon To: fletcher@evokesoft.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <4f673ktcan.fsf@anchor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me> (message from Morgan Fletcher on 16 Jul 1999 16:17:20 -0700) Subject: Re: Support? References: <4f673ktcan.fsf@anchor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me> > I apologize for the broad distribution, but I believe I'm talking to > the right people. Well sort of - but the CCP is more concerned with the non-business side of CVS. > Can you direct me to any entity selling training & support for these > tools, specifically CVS? If you want an answer today, take a look at http://www.cyclic.com/cyclic-pages/consult.html Next week, the answer may be (at least slightly) different. Keep your eye on http://www.cyclic.com/ (or subscribe to the cyclic-announce mailing list - see the "News" page there). From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 16 18:32:50 1999 Received: from mailhost.chromatic.com (postal.chromatic.com [208.12.96.9]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA09950 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:32:49 -0500 Received: from gandalf ([172.16.230.53]) by mailhost.chromatic.com (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07949; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:29:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Peter A. Vogel" To: "Morgan Fletcher" , Subject: RE: Support? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:29:37 -0700 Message-ID: <012301becfe3$11c806c0$35e610ac@gandalf.chromatic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <4f673ktcan.fsf@anchor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 I believe there is an organization mentioned on the Cyclic pages that does training, and there are a number of us on this list that do it as a side thing (including myself). Look for someone local if you can. Given that you are a small company, I would venture to say that the other solutions you looked at are MAJOR OVERKILL. Another option you might want to consider looking at would be SOS from Cliosoft. -Peter Peter A. Vogel SW Configuration Mgmt Lead ATI Research, Inc. Configuration/Release Manager iReady Corporation > -----Original Message----- > From: Morgan Fletcher [mailto:fletcher@evokesoft.com] > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:17 PM > To: ccp@red-bean.com > Subject: Support? > > > I apologize for the broad distribution, but I believe I'm talking to > the right people. > > I'm the CM guy at a small software company. I've written an evaluation > of four SCM toolsets: Rational, Perforce, Razor and 'GNU'. GNU in this > case being CVS, GNATS and make. Part of my proposal weighs cost, time > and risk, and I'd like to be able to show some information about > training. (Hi Jim.) > > Can you direct me to any entity selling training & support for these > tools, specifically CVS? My only thought was Cygnus, but they don't > appear to do any training, and their focus is on gcc. > > Thanks for your time, > > morgan > -- > Morgan Fletcher > Release Engineering Manager > Evoke Software - http://www.evokesoft.com > From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 11:51:37 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA08520 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:51:36 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08144; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:48:49 -0500 Message-ID: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:48:49 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.37 Well folks, here's the news we've been hinting about for the last couple of weeks. This announcement probably contains some surprises which many of you weren't expecting. I apologize for those surprises, and I've got reasonably good explanations on hand if anyone here is ticked off at me. :-) The transition is mostly done. The cyclic.com domain has moved to our server hardware here at AbiSource, er, SourceGear. Someone even made a commit to the CVS tree yesterday, apparently without difficulty, and without even being aware of the fact that the tree had moved across the country. Kudos to Andy Burnett here at SourceGear who handled all the sysadmin issues in a very seamless manner. As you can see from all the announcements we're making today, our company is making a very major transition, and the acquisition of Cyclic was just one part of it. Nonetheless, we're looking forward to getting back to real work and getting started with actual CVS development. Give us a few more days to catch our breath, and then we'll be ready to move forward. I don't expect this mailing list to last too much longer, but correct me if I'm wrong. I'm assuming that ongoing discussions about CVS development will take place on devel-cvs. I think the first step will be to talk about the future organization and coordination of CVS development. Also, I'd like to go through the effort of making sure that any and all outstanding patches to CVS are handled appropriately. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. Like I said, we'll need a few days to get things settled down around here. -- Dear CVS User, SourceGear Corporation announced today that it has acquired Cyclic Software. We are looking forward to the opportunity to be involved in the support and development of CVS, and we hope to carry on with Cyclic Software now that its previous proprietor, Jim Kingdon, has moved on to another position. SourceGear is a new identity for an existing company, and I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you who we are. First of all, SourceGear is the founder and sponsor of the AbiWord project. (AbiWord is a cross-platform word processor being developed by individuals here at SourceGear as well as many others in the broader community. It is distributed under the GNU GPL, the same license as CVS.) We are active participants in the free software world. Our experience in leading the development of AbiWord has taught us a great deal about community-developed projects. We intend to serve the community as active maintainers of CVS and provide leadership in the ongoing development of this important tool. SourceGear also sells a line of developer tools for users of Microsoft Visual SourceSafe (Microsoft's version control tool). Our products, including SourceOffSite and SourceSurf, are used by thousands of customers all over the world. Our experience in the development and support of these products, including version control technology and customer support, gives us great confidence in our ability to service the needs of Cyclic's existing customers. Jim Kingdon has contributed the following quote, regarding our acquisition of Cyclic Software: When I got a non-CVS job, I needed to figure out how to pass Cyclic on to someone who would be good for the future of CVS. A lot of people depend on CVS and I wanted to find someone who would maintain it at least as well as I had, hopefully better. After many discussions of how various free software projects are structured, including for-profit and non-profit options, I am very glad to be turning the reins over to SourceGear. Most successful free software projects benefit greatly from paid staff working on them, and I am glad to see that SourceGear plans to participate in all aspects of CVS - publicizing CVS, adding features, fixing bugs, working with external developers, and selling CVS-related products and services. I wasn't sure I'd find a company who wanted to take over CVS but I was tickled pink to find some who understands free software as well as SourceGear. I've been following SourceGear's AbiWord project for the last year or so, and have been very happy to see them doing a great job both technically and also in terms of working with the free software community. We are very pleased to be involved with the support and development of the most popular version control tool in the Open Source world. We ourselves are active users of CVS, and it is important to us that it continue to grow and be maintained proactively. Yours truly, Eric W. Sink President SourceGear Corporation From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:16:14 1999 Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08629 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:16:12 -0500 Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA41672; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:13:17 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: "Eric W. Sink" Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software Message-ID: <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com>; from Eric W. Sink on Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 11:48:49AM -0500 On Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 11:48:49AM -0500, Eric W. Sink wrote: > > I don't expect this mailing list to last too much longer, but correct > me if I'm wrong. I'm assuming that ongoing discussions about CVS > development will take place on devel-cvs. Actually, I sort of hope not. If I'm not mistaken, access to devel-cvs is limited to those who have checkin access to the repository, which brings us back to those thorny process issues we were discussing a couple of days ago. Most of the people on this list are probably also on devel-cvs, but I know that I've never had checkin access to the repository despite contributing some major work. (Okay, I admit that one of them was PreservePermissions, but hey man, it wasn't my idea. :-) It definitely makes sense for the current development group (i.e. not me) to be the ones to decide any changes to the development process. But it would still be nice for "unofficial" contributors to have the chance to comment on, or at least listen to, any proposed changes. Sort of like being non-voting shareholders. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:24:56 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08694 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:24:55 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09970; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:22:03 -0500 Message-ID: <19990721122203.O2739@postman.abisource.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:22:03 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: Tim Pierce Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com>; from Tim Pierce on Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 01:13:17PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.37 > Actually, I sort of hope not. If I'm not mistaken, access to > devel-cvs is limited to those who have checkin access to the > repository, which brings us back to those thorny process issues we > were discussing a couple of days ago. Good point -- strictly out of respect for procedure, if we're going to talk about implementing a more open development process, we should probably do so on a more open mailing list, eh? :-) -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman eric@abisource.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:39:34 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA08806 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:39:32 -0500 Received: (qmail 18855 invoked by uid 4); 21 Jul 1999 17:36:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 645 invoked by uid 269); 21 Jul 1999 17:36:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721173631.644.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 21 Jul 1999 13:36:31 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: twp@rootsweb.com CC: eric@postman.abisource.com, ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> (message from Tim Pierce on Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:13:17 -0400) Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:13:17 -0400 From: Tim Pierce Actually, I sort of hope not. If I'm not mistaken, access to devel-cvs is limited to those who have checkin access to the repository, which brings us back to those thorny process issues we were discussing a couple of days ago. I believe we should change that. I don't see any reason to have a closed development list. I would argue we can simply hold a vote on devel-cvs in order to change it. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:42:17 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08836 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:42:14 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA01118; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:41:35 -0500 To: Tim Pierce Cc: "Eric W. Sink" , ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: the definitive fritterware. From: Karl Fogel Date: 21 Jul 1999 12:41:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: Tim Pierce's message of "Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:13:17 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 [Congratulations on the purchase, AbiSource!] Tim Pierce writes: > Actually, I sort of hope not. If I'm not mistaken, access to > devel-cvs is limited to those who have checkin access to the > repository, which brings us back to those thorny process issues we > were discussing a couple of days ago. Most of the people on this list > are probably also on devel-cvs, but I know that I've never had checkin > access to the repository despite contributing some major work. (Okay, > I admit that one of them was PreservePermissions, but hey man, it > wasn't my idea. :-) Actually, very few of the people on the CCP list are on devel-cvs. I second Tim's concern: as things have been set up, devel-cvs is limited to people with direct commit access to the repository. One must have commit access in order to send to that list. Not a good place for open discussion. :-) I think it has been possible to listen on the list even if one does not have commit access; not sure about that, though. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:50:54 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08917 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:50:51 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA01122; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:50:48 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: CCP web pages updated Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated and byte-compiled. From: Karl Fogel Date: 21 Jul 1999 12:50:48 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 I've updated the CCP web pages. Please check them out and see what you think. The list will remain online for the forseeable future. Personally, I consider our mission to be in suspended animation now; CVS does not need two central coordinators. CCP members can (and I hope will) stay involved in CVS matters individually, but I don't think the CCP as an organization needs to exist except as a "watchdog group", ready to come alive again should enough people be concerned with the state of CVS maintenance. This is not to imply that I think AbiSource will fail, or that they won't. It's simply too early to tell; in the meantime, the immediate crisis (hosting cyclic.com) is over, so let's all spend less time talking and voting and more time coding and testing. :-) Best, -Karl P.S. I'll email VA Research that we don't need hosting anymore. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:54:07 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08940 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:54:05 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA01128; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:53:57 -0500 To: rob@varesearch.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: possible need for new host of CVS home site, are you interested? Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Microsoft: making the world a better place... for Microsoft. From: Karl Fogel Date: 21 Jul 1999 12:53:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: Rob Walker's message of "Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:24:09 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Rob, As you may have heard, Cyclic Software (and therefore the cyclic.com domain) were just purchased by AbiSource/SourceGear. So they'll take care of hosting it, obviously. Thanks for having been so willing to help out, though; if we're ever looking for a site for a worthy project again, we'll be sure to call you first. :-) Best, -Karl Fogel From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 12:58:21 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08999 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:58:20 -0500 Received: from panix7.panix.com (panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D880518C28 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from kingdon@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id NAA29867; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907211755.NAA29867@panix7.panix.com> X-Authentication-Warning: panix7.panix.com: kingdon set sender to kingdon@panix.com using -f From: Jim Kingdon To: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <19990721173631.644.qmail@daffy.airs.com> (message from Ian Lance Taylor on 21 Jul 1999 13:36:31 -0400) Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> <19990721173631.644.qmail@daffy.airs.com> > I would argue we can simply hold a vote on devel-cvs in order to > change it. Vote? I think this whole "voting" or "group process" thing is getting _waaay_ out of hand. When I (and others) set up the developer group, with certain procedures for a well-defined membership and consensus among those people, my vision was of a bunch of a people who get together and hack (which is what terms like "rough consensus and running code" conjure up for me). I never had in mind it turning into the bureaucratic morass which it has apparently become. Of course, Eric is now running the show (well, at least the Cyclic show) and if he wants to conduct a vote, that's up to him, but let me just express my own personal opinion that devel-cvs never was as much of an egalitarian group as some people (including me) sometimes acted, and that we shouldn't get hung up on egalitarian procedure for the sake of egalitarian procedure. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 13:15:46 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA09164 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:15:44 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA01195; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:14:58 -0500 To: Jim Kingdon Cc: ccp@red-bean.com, eric@abisource.com Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> <19990721173631.644.qmail@daffy.airs.com> <199907211755.NAA29867@panix7.panix.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: some voids are better left unfilled. From: Karl Fogel Date: 21 Jul 1999 13:14:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jim Kingdon's message of "Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 42 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Yay. Needed to be said, Jim. May I suggest to AbiSource: since the only important procedural safeguard (the process by which commit access is granted) has already been done away with, there's no reason to be squeamish about the comparatively minor change of simply making the devel-cvs list open by fiat. If I may further suggest a good procedure for getting things done while respecting process: Do something, but with the understanding that any developer can raise an objection and ask for a vote on the matter (which they are then responsible for organizing and tallying). When no one objects, then whatever you did can be considered to have been approved. In this way, there are still safeguards, but they don't feel like obstacles to getting stuff done. So just do it. :-) Jim Kingdon writes: > > I would argue we can simply hold a vote on devel-cvs in order to > > change it. > > Vote? > > I think this whole "voting" or "group process" thing is getting > _waaay_ out of hand. When I (and others) set up the developer group, > with certain procedures for a well-defined membership and consensus > among those people, my vision was of a bunch of a people who get > together and hack (which is what terms like "rough consensus and > running code" conjure up for me). I never had in mind it turning into > the bureaucratic morass which it has apparently become. > > Of course, Eric is now running the show (well, at least the Cyclic > show) and if he wants to conduct a vote, that's up to him, but let me > just express my own personal opinion that devel-cvs never was as much > of an egalitarian group as some people (including me) sometimes acted, > and that we shouldn't get hung up on egalitarian procedure for the > sake of egalitarian procedure. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 13:16:07 1999 Received: from comton.airs.com (comton.airs.com [199.103.241.106]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA09173 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:16:05 -0500 Received: (qmail 19195 invoked by uid 4); 21 Jul 1999 18:13:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 820 invoked by uid 269); 21 Jul 1999 18:13:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721181308.819.qmail@daffy.airs.com> Date: 21 Jul 1999 14:13:08 -0400 From: Ian Lance Taylor To: kingdon@panix.com CC: ccp@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <199907211755.NAA29867@panix7.panix.com> (message from Jim Kingdon on Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software References: <19990721114849.I2739@postman.abisource.com> <19990721131317.Y23191@ma-1.rootsweb.com> <19990721173631.644.qmail@daffy.airs.com> <199907211755.NAA29867@panix7.panix.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Kingdon > I would argue we can simply hold a vote on devel-cvs in order to > change it. Vote? I think this whole "voting" or "group process" thing is getting _waaay_ out of hand. When I (and others) set up the developer group, with certain procedures for a well-defined membership and consensus among those people, my vision was of a bunch of a people who get together and hack (which is what terms like "rough consensus and running code" conjure up for me). I never had in mind it turning into the bureaucratic morass which it has apparently become. Of course, Eric is now running the show (well, at least the Cyclic show) and if he wants to conduct a vote, that's up to him, but let me just express my own personal opinion that devel-cvs never was as much of an egalitarian group as some people (including me) sometimes acted, and that we shouldn't get hung up on egalitarian procedure for the sake of egalitarian procedure. Fine, then, we can achieve rough consensus. Who cares? Personally, I think that it is a bureaucratic morass because of rules like ``nobody can be on devel-cvs except people who have check-in access.'' I'd prefer to scrap all the rules. Ian From ccp-request@red-bean.com Wed Jul 21 13:46:24 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA09470 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:46:18 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05221 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07172 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA01503 for ccp@red-bean.com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907211843.OAA01503@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: SourceGear Corporation Acquires Cyclic Software To: ccp@red-bean.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:43:23 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <19990721181308.819.qmail@daffy.airs.com> from "Ian Lance Taylor" at Jul 21, 99 02:13:08 pm From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Lance Taylor writes: > > Personally, I think that it is a bureaucratic morass because of rules > like ``nobody can be on devel-cvs except people who have check-in > access.'' I'd prefer to scrap all the rules. You guys are making a much bigger deal over devel-cvs than it deserves. There have been more messages on ccp just today than there have been on devel-cvs in the last year, and they haven't been particularly interesting (mostly just "Bob want to be a developer, any objections?" and "I'm going to be making an interim release next Tuesday."). And anyone can read devel-cvs, the only restriction is on posting. All the interesting stuff is discussed on bug-cvs or info-cvs, not devel-cvs. -Larry Jones You just can't ever be too careful. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 22 14:00:05 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14444 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:59:51 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08016; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04467; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA02658; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907221856.OAA02658@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: "recv(): EOF" error when logging in to pserver To: smokris@softpixel.com (Steve Mokris) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Cc: info-cvs@gnu.org, ccp@red-bean.com In-Reply-To: from "Steve Mokris" at Jul 22, 99 01:34:03 pm From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Mokris writes: > > cvs [login aborted]: recv() from server softpixel.com: EOF [...] > (I have searched through all documentation I could find (starting at > www.cyclic.com), though have found no reference to this problem) www.cyclic.com -> Development of CVS -> known bugs: > Trying to run "cvs login" with a CVS 1.10.6 server will abort with an > error "recv() from server machine: EOF" (fix checked in 1999-05-20). Either back up to a previous interim release or use the current development version. (It would be nice if one of the first things the new owners of cyclic.com do is create a new interim release of cvs.) -Larry Jones Rats. I can't tell my gum from my Silly Putty. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 22 14:26:05 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14612 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:26:04 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00363; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:22:44 -0500 Message-ID: <19990722142243.I21243@postman.abisource.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:22:43 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: Larry Jones , Steve Mokris Cc: info-cvs@gnu.org, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: "recv(): EOF" error when logging in to pserver References: <199907221856.OAA02658@thor.sdrc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199907221856.OAA02658@thor.sdrc.com>; from Larry Jones on Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 02:56:57PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.37 > (It would be nice if one of the first things the new owners of > cyclic.com do is create a new interim release of cvs.) We're planning on it. It seems like there are a variety of outstanding patches which need to be integrated/evaluated/tested/etc. Handling those patches properly seems like the first step, before we try to attempt anything more ambitious. :-) -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation eric@sourcegear.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 22 14:33:35 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14652 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:33:33 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA03619; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:33:14 -0500 To: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: "recv(): EOF" error when logging in to pserver References: <199907221856.OAA02658@thor.sdrc.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: it could be worse, but it'll take time. From: Karl Fogel Date: 22 Jul 1999 14:33:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: larry.jones@sdrc.com's message of "Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:56:57 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) writes: > (It would be nice if one of the first things the new owners of > cyclic.com do is create a new interim release of cvs.) Amen to that! The fact that pserver was broken in 1.10.6 has been the cause of more bug reports than any other single problem in recent memory. IMHO an interim release should have been made the next day with that fixed. :-( From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 22 14:42:11 1999 Received: from heimdall.sdrc.com (heimdall.sdrc.com [146.122.132.195]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14711 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:42:10 -0500 Received: from mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (ratatosk.sdrc.com [146.122.142.31]) by heimdall.sdrc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11282; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor.sdrc.com (scjones@thor [146.122.62.108]) by mailhub-cvg.sdrc.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06626; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from scjones@localhost) by thor.sdrc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA02724; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907221939.PAA02724@thor.sdrc.com> Subject: Re: "recv(): EOF" error when logging in to pserver To: info-cvs@gnu.org, ccp@red-bean.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:39:27 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <19990722142243.I21243@postman.abisource.com> from "Eric W. Sink" at Jul 22, 99 02:22:43 pm From: larry.jones@sdrc.com (Larry Jones) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric W. Sink writes: > > We're planning on it. It seems like there are a variety of > outstanding patches which need to be integrated/evaluated/tested/etc. > Handling those patches properly seems like the first step, before we > try to attempt anything more ambitious. :-) That's the second step. As Karl has already pointed out, the current interim release is busted as far as pserver goes and there have been a few other less critical bug fixes since 1.10.6, so just turning the current development release into an interim release would be a big step forward. -Larry Jones I like maxims that don't encourage behavior modification. -- Calvin From ccp-request@red-bean.com Thu Jul 22 15:02:45 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:eric@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14810 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:02:44 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01987; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:00:00 -0500 Message-ID: <19990722145959.H649@postman.abisource.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:59:59 -0500 From: "Eric W. Sink" To: Larry Jones , info-cvs@gnu.org, ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: "recv(): EOF" error when logging in to pserver References: <19990722142243.I21243@postman.abisource.com> <199907221939.PAA02724@thor.sdrc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199907221939.PAA02724@thor.sdrc.com>; from Larry Jones on Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 03:39:27PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux postman 2.0.37 > > We're planning on it. It seems like there are a variety of > > outstanding patches which need to be integrated/evaluated/tested/etc. > > Handling those patches properly seems like the first step, before we > > try to attempt anything more ambitious. :-) > > That's the second step. As Karl has already pointed out, the current > interim release is busted as far as pserver goes and there have been a > few other less critical bug fixes since 1.10.6, so just turning the > current development release into an interim release would be a big step > forward. Good point -- thanks for the clarification. -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation eric@sourcegear.com From ccp-request@red-bean.com Fri Jul 23 23:51:55 1999 Received: from queso.onshore.com (root@queso.onshore.com [206.69.89.34]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA20440 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:51:55 -0500 Received: from pantheon.onshore.com (pantheon.onShore.com [206.69.88.17]) by queso.onshore.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA18845 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:48:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907240448.XAA18845@queso.onshore.com> Reply-to: fitz@red-bean.com From: "B. W. Fitzpatrick" To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: cvs.cyclic.com not available? X-Windows: you'll envy the dead. Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:52:09 -0500 Sender: bwf@pantheon.onshore.com I can't reach cvs.cyclic.com. Is it off the net or is my isp hosed? ------ pantheon: /home/bwf/cvs-work>cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.cyclic.com:/home2/cvsroot login (Logging in to anonymous@cvs.cyclic.com) CVS password: cvs [login aborted]: connect to cvs.cyclic.com:2401 failed: No route to host ------ FWIW, I can't hit www.cyclic.com either. -Fitz From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jul 24 02:19:05 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (kfogel@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA20736; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:19:01 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA05763; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:18:52 -0500 To: fitz@red-bean.com Cc: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: cvs.cyclic.com not available? References: <199907240448.XAA18845@queso.onshore.com> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com Emacs: more than just a Lisp interpreter, a text editor as well! From: Karl Fogel Date: 24 Jul 1999 02:18:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: "B. W. Fitzpatrick"'s message of "Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:52:09 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 6 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 "B. W. Fitzpatrick" writes: > I can't reach cvs.cyclic.com. Is it off the net or is my isp hosed? It appears to be back up now; no idea what happened or for how long. I did several CVS source tree updates in recent days with no problems. From ccp-request@red-bean.com Sat Jul 24 11:06:52 1999 Received: from postman.abisource.com (IDENT:root@postman.abisource.com [206.185.0.35]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21711 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:06:48 -0500 From: andy@postman.abisource.com Received: from postman.abisource.com (andy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postman.abisource.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05019 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:03:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199907241603.LAA05019@postman.abisource.com> To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: Re: cvs.cyclic.com not available? In-reply-to: Your message of 24 Jul 1999 02:18:52 -0500. Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:03:43 -0500 >>"B. W. Fitzpatrick" writes: >> I can't reach cvs.cyclic.com. Is it off the net or is my isp hosed? >It appears to be back up now; no idea what happened or for how long. >I did several CVS source tree updates in recent days with no problems. We had a power outage last evening that took down the machine hosting cvs.cyclic.com. All should be well now. &y From ccp-request Fri Sep 3 08:55:01 1999 Received: from qhars001.nortel.com (qhars001.NortelNetworks.com [192.100.101.18]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA07724 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:54:59 -0500 Received: from zhard00m.europe.nortel.com (actually zhard00m) by qhars001.nortel.com; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:49:21 +0100 Received: by zhard00m.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:49:20 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Chris Recknell" To: "'ccp@red-bean.com'" Subject: CVS -- Java and web development Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:49:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain CCP, I'm currently looking at ways to run version control across all our development. We edit html pages, we implement web-database connectivity and we develop Java servlets. I have some questions for whoever would be able to help: * The submit/retrive commands - can they be issued from windows based programs ie. notepad, or is a shell necessary * Which is the latest version of CVS (the websites pretty confused or maybe I'm overtired!). * Can the control settings for java updates be set heavier than those for HTML edits? * How does CVS interact with development environments (my apologies, I'm not that techy) Any help or guidance with these queries would be much appreciated Chris Recknell Information Services ESN: 560-8283 From ccp-request Sat Sep 4 13:57:39 1999 Received: from floss.red-bean.com (root@floss.onshore.com [206.69.88.105]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA11318 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:57:37 -0500 Received: (from kfogel@localhost) by floss.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA02354; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:50:56 -0500 To: "Chris Recknell" Cc: "'ccp@red-bean.com'" Subject: Re: CVS -- Java and web development References: Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com X-Windows: a mistake carried out to perfection. From: Karl Fogel Date: 04 Sep 1999 13:50:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Chris Recknell"'s message of "Fri, 3 Sep 1999 14:49:18 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 "Chris Recknell" writes: > I'm currently looking at ways to run version control across all our > development. We edit html pages, we implement web-database connectivity and > we develop Java servlets. Try info-cvs@gnu.org, that's the canonical mailing list for such queries. (1.10.7 is the latest official release of CVS). -Karl > I have some questions for whoever would be able to help: > > * The submit/retrive commands - can they be issued from windows based > programs ie. notepad, or is a shell necessary > * Which is the latest version of CVS (the websites pretty confused or > maybe I'm overtired!). > * Can the control settings for java updates be set heavier than those > for HTML edits? > * How does CVS interact with development environments (my apologies, > I'm not that techy) > > Any help or guidance with these queries would be much appreciated > > Chris Recknell > Information Services > ESN: 560-8283 From ccp-request Sun Sep 19 12:39:04 1999 Received: from localhost (1Cust152.tnt7.lax1.da.uu.net [208.251.150.152]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA27664 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:38:59 -0500 From: cards@merchantsvs.com Message-Id: <199909191738.MAA27664@sanpietro.red-bean.com> To: Subject: ADV:CREDIT CARD PROCESSING Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:10:05 ********************************************************* This message is being brought to you by IBS Inc. & SBS To be removed from from further mailings please respond to this email with "Remove" in the subject line. ********************************************************* Dear Friend, Discover how you can accept credit cards directly from your website, telephone or fax for your products and services and never need to purchase or lease expensive credit card equipment or pay a large monthly fee for online ordering capabilities or real time processing transactions. **Brand New** Phone-Charge Credit Card acceptance program allows you to accept Visa, MasterCard, Amex and Discover any TIME,any WHERE through phone, fax or internet without the need to purchase or lease expensive credit card equipment. 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ASK ABOUT OUR INCREDIBLE DEALER OPPORTUNITY This offer only applies to U.S. Residents only and some Canadians with valid U.S. Social Security #'s IBS Inc.& SBS 7657 Winnetka Ave Canoga Park Ca. 91306 From ccp-request Sun Sep 26 03:30:16 1999 Received: from pup7.conepuppy.com (pup7.conepuppy.com [216.99.44.7]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA23409 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:30:15 -0500 Received: from www-data by pup7.conepuppy.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11V9bW-000880-00; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:24:18 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com From: webmaster\@codecranker.com@pup7.conepuppy.com X-Mailer: Mailer::1.0 (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/scripts/) Subject: Your link was added to the CodeCranker Message-Id: Sender: www-data Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:24:18 -0500 We've added the following link into the CodeCranker Programmer's Search Engine: Title : The CVS Continuity Project URL : http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/ Category : Tools/Configuration_Management/CVS Description : The CVS Continuity Project - open discussion on the present and future role of CVS in collaborative software development. You can see your new listing at: http://www.CodeCranker.com Should you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Sincerely, The CodeCranker From ccp-request Wed Sep 29 01:19:14 1999 Received: from pup7.conepuppy.com (pup7.conepuppy.com [216.99.44.7]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA08115 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 01:19:14 -0500 Received: from www-data by pup7.conepuppy.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11WCzY-0002LD-00; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 01:13:28 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com From: webmaster@codecranker.com X-Mailer: Mailer::1.0 (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/scripts/) Subject: Rate your resource on the CodeCranker Message-Id: Sender: www-data Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 01:13:28 -0500 As the popularity of CodeCranker grows and the number of links increases it becomes more important to make sure your site is getting the exposure in our list that it deserves. We've addressed this by putting in place a rating system that allows your users to rate the quality and content of your site. This in turn is used to sort the links in each category. We also find the highest rated links and feature them every week in a Site of the week (for each category) and a top rated resource page that is updated every day. All you have to do to participate in this system is to place the following snippet of HTML on your site.
As a programmer who hates spam myself I want to make sure that you only receive this kind of e-mail if you want it. If you no longer want to receive e-mail from the CodeCranker simply reply to this message with an Un-Subscribe in the subject and we'll remove your name immediately (this won't in any way effect your link entry with us) From ccp-request Fri Oct 1 20:37:26 1999 Received: from ns.bigbear.net (p94.amax7.dialup.lax1.flash.net [209.30.75.94]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA20621; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:37:17 -0500 From: mowhco@att.net Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:57:13 Message-Id: <165.26174.177339@ns.bigbear.net> Dear Future Associate, You Can Work At Home & Set Your Own Hours. Start earning Big Money in a short time NO Newspaper Advertising! Your job will be to stuff and mail envelopes for our company. You will receive $.25 for each and every envelope you stuff and mail out. Just follow our simple instructions and you will be making money as easy as 1… 2… 3 For example stuff and mail 200 envelopes and you will receive $50.00. Stuff and mail 1000 and you will receive $250.00. Stuff and mail 2000 and you will receive $500.00 and more Never before has there been an easier way to make money from home! Our Company's Home Mailing Program is designed for people with little or no experience and provides simple, step by step instructions. There is no prior experience or special skills necessary on your part, Just stuffing envelopes. We need the help of honest and reliable home workers like you. Because we are overloaded with work and have more than our staff can handle. We have now expanded our mailing program and are expecting to reach millions more with our offers throughout the US and Canada. Our system of stuffing and mailing envelopes is very simple and easy to do! You will not be required to buy envelopes or postage stamps. 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From ccp-request Mon Oct 18 18:46:41 1999 Received: from yap.cinteractive.com (yap.cinteractive.com [4.17.168.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA12063 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:46:40 -0500 Received: by yap.cinteractive.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:50:07 -0400 Message-ID: <8F04455EA3A3D21195A600104B72E38601FCA5@yap.cinteractive.com> From: Andy Singleton To: "'ccp@red-bean.com'" Subject: Looking for someone to integrate CVS with our Web based project c ollaboration app Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:50:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We are looking for someone to integrate CVS with Power Steering, our Web based project collaboration application. The goal will be to create a great environment for collaborating on distributed development. In addition to enhancing the CVS and jCVS code base, the resulting system will be offered as a free application service for open source developers. We would like to achieve the following: * Server side scripts for creating and maintaining CVS projects to match Power Steering projects. * Invocation of CVS graphical client from Power Steering web pages. * Seamless authentication of Power Steering users into CVS. Authentication information handled on the HTTP / SSL socket. We will pay for work on a contract basis. For more info: Cambridge Interactive: http://www.cinteractive.com Power Steering: http://psteering.com Andy Singleton - , (617) 520-2100 x 113 From ccp-request Wed Jan 19 04:23:00 2000 Received: from www.scholarstuff.com ([209.207.167.225]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA18255; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:22:59 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:22:59 -0600 From: emergency_news_update@yahoo.com Message-Id: <200001191022.EAA18255@sanpietro.red-bean.com> Received: from john3-16 ([204.134.99.119]) by www.scholarstuff.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id com; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:59:20 -0500 To: lucky1@hushmail.com Subject: Web Innovation in Emergency and Risk Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit From Email Address: emergency_news_update@yahoo.com Subject: Web Innovation in Emergency and Risk Management Innovation Update: Federal Department of Transportation Coast Guard San Francisco Philadelphia Burbank San Bernardino County Charles Schwab Warner Brothers All these organizations brought in the New Year using Web-based tools to manage emergencies and events in the new millennium. To learn more about this breakthrough, simply respond to emergency_update_2000@yahoo.com with "More Info" in the subject line. - Web-based - Built-in map - No software to load - No hardware to install - Can be operational in a week - Can be scaled to meet your requirements - Is secure and reliable - And low cost The result is that everyone is accessing the same information at the same time. - More effective response - Better use of resources - Facilitates reimbursements - Better overall service to save lives, property and taxes Please respond to emergency_update_2000@yahoo.com with "More Info" in the subject line. Call us toll free: 877-546-7892. Or write: 7301 Topanga Blvd. #300, Canoga Park, CA 91303. This message is sent in compliance with the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/ Further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to emergency_update_2000@yahoo.com with the word "remove" in the subject line. (See attached file: #10.txt) From ccp-request Sat Jan 22 17:22:27 2000 Received: from oh1 (www.openhere.com [165.254.210.60]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA20954 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:22:27 -0600 From: Sara@openhere.com Received: from CC89180-A.trntn1.nj.home.com ([24.9.93.28]) by oh1 (Mail-Gear 1.1.1) with SMTP id M2000012218562828699 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:56:29 -0500 To: ccp@red-bean.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:21:08 -0500 Subject: Your site has been included on OpenHere Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-Id: Hi, Your site has been included in the OpenHere.com index and search engine. OpenHere is one of the 10 largest index and search sites on the Internet. Your site listing is: Link: http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/ Title: The CVS Continuity Project Description: OpenHere Category: http://www.openhere.com/tech1/software/configuration-management/tools/cvs/ You might have already received a message similar to this one, as we send a note when ever we add a link to your site in a different category on OpenHere.com. At OpenHere you can dynamically modify your site's listing at any time. You can also include your site's listing in other categories on OpenHere.com. When you modify your site's listing, it is automatically placed at the top of the category in which it is included, and is placed first in the search engine results for the keywords relating to your site. To modify, add or delete your listing: 1. Go to the page on OpenHere where your site is presently listed or you would like it listed. 2. Select "Suggest a Site". 3. Follow the instructions for changing your listing. All of the modifications you submit to OpenHere.com are processed in real time. As soon as you see the response to your submission, your site listing should be updated. www.OpenHere.com is frequented by both children and families. As a result, www.OpenHere.com does not include links to material which is illegal to display to minors. Sara www.OpenHere.com Your key to the Net! From ccp-request Fri Mar 24 00:53:22 2000 Received: from hamster.com (IDENT:root@[151.196.157.2]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA06006 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:53:22 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by hamster.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA14372; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:02:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:02:47 -0500 Message-Id: <200003240702.CAA14372@hamster.com> To: ccp@red-bean.com From: Subject: Your website and HAMSTER.COM! Hey! I just visited your site http://www.red-bean.com/ccp/ , and found it quite interesting :> I'm running this program called -Hamster ADS- which pays up to 20 cents per unique visitor & 5 cents per click on TEXT ADS which can fit right into your site perfectly. We cut checks to our webmasters EVERY friday and I'm sure you will be very interested :> Check us out @ http://www.hamster.com If you have any questions email me at jack@hamster.com Hope to see you on our program soon! Thanks for your time. Jack http://www.hamster.com jack@hamster.com From ccp-request Fri Aug 25 19:03:55 2000 Received: from compaq (ip223.toledo7.oh.pub-ip.psi.net [38.31.209.223]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id TAA00944 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:03:46 -0500 Message-Id: <200008260003.TAA00944@sanpietro.red-bean.com> X-Authentication-Warning: sanpietro.red-bean.com: Host ip223.toledo7.oh.pub-ip.psi.net [38.31.209.223] claimed to be compaq From: "dcart" To: Subject: INCREDIBLE AND AMAZING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:03:13 A Mind Blowing Opportunity!!!!! I felt compelled to share this with anyone interested in spending more time with their families insted of at work. It's an interesting story- Read it and see what I mean. ============================================= "Parent of a 15 year old finds $71,000 cash in his closet". ============================================= Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have seen this story featured on the major nightly news program (USA). This fifteen year olds mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15 year old son's closet. Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash. Five dollar bills, twenties fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labeled piles. "My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag- that's more than my husband earns in a year". The woman immediately called her husband at the car dealership where he worked to tell him what she'd discovered. He came home right away and they drove together to the boy's school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet. As it turns out, the boy had been sending out via E-mail on the Internet a type of 'chain-letter' to E-mail addresses that he got off of the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom. "I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I Sent five dollars to four people for the Reports, put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever 15-year-old. The Reports I received for my 20 dollars were fantastic. The E-mail letter listed 4 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each of the 4 individuals. These individuals would in turn e-mail me the 4 Reports. Put your name and mailing info in the number one position, move the number two person to position #3 Move the third person to the 4th position. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name in the number one position. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and I really didn't think it was gonna work", the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 dollar bills. "About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelopes stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter- I thought I was in trouble or some- thing (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail. "The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, I barely had time for my homework". He had also been riding his bike to several of the area's banks and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. "I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in [to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me. Surprisingly, the boy didn't have any reason to be afraid. The reporting news team examined and investigated the so-called 'chain-letter' the boy was sending out and found that it wasn't a chain-letter at all. In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five dollar bill that he received, he immediately sent out the report requested. This Report made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (Sending a Report requested) for a five dollar fee. The Reports that you will receive and eventually send out, are the power behind the program. They include insider tips and techniques for cost effective promotion. These Reports are very comprehensive and will allow you to build and promote any business product or service on the internet. You have just read the letter that the 15-year-old was sending out by E-mail, you can do the exact same thing he was doing, simply by following the instructions in this letter. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Here are instructions on how to make Thousands in US cash $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD # 1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT # 1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT # 2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that are 1,000 orders for REPORT # 3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that are 10,000 orders for REPORT # 4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550! !! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100, 000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! METHOD # 2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the Internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level--your 10 members with $5.......................................$50 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)...........$5,000 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000).....$50,000 THIS TOTALS ----------$55,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! AVAILABLE REPORTS *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER *** Notes: -- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED. -- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. ## PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: REPORT # 1 ORDER REPORT FROM: # 1 FROM: D. Cartledge P.O.Box. 32 Waterville, OH 43566 REPORT # 2 ORDER REPORT # 2 FROM: J. D. Mart P.O. Box 184 Fairfield, IL 62837 REPORT # 3 ORDER REPORT # 3 FROM: DJ Wing PO Box 133 Boonville, MO 65233 REPORT # 4 ORDER REPORT # 4 FROM: Brad Baker P.O. Box 366 Cole Camp, MO 65235 About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* -- TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. -- Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. -- ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. -- Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! -- ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO DO. As your name reaches position 2,3 and 4 the more five Dollar bills you will receive. How many thousands could you receive? If you don't try it - you will NEVER Know !! ~It Works ~ It's Legal ~ It's Easy ~ So WHY NOT ?!? __________________________________________________________ Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered Spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. From ccp-request Sun Sep 10 22:13:14 2000 Received: from unknown (atlnga-as-5-ip-3.atlantic.net [209.208.45.3]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA18394; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:13:10 -0500 From: bmark1@atlantaoffice.com X-Authentication-Warning: sanpietro.red-bean.com: Host atlnga-as-5-ip-3.atlantic.net [209.208.45.3] claimed to be unknown Subject: your imaging supplies Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:37:55 Message-Id: <622.348412.303@> To: undisclosed-recipients:; STATIC SYSTEMS 5334 LAKE VIEW CLUB ATLANTA GA 30338 770-399-0953 ***LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGES*** ***FAX AND COPIER TONER*** WE ACCEPT GOVERNMENT, SCHOOL,UNIVERSITY AND LARGE CORPORATE PURCHASE ORDERS. JUST LEAVE YOUR PO # WITH CORRECT BILLING AND SHIPPING ADDRESS. WHY PAY MORE FOR YOUR LASER PRINTER CARTRIDGES? SAVE FROM 20-40% BY PURCHASING FROM STATIC SYSTEMS. ALL CARTRIDGES COME WITH A 90 DAY WARRANTY. WE WILL IMMEDIATELY REPLACE YOUR CARTRIDGE (NO QUESTIONS ASKED) IF IT GOES BAD WITHIN 90 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF PURCHASE. CHECK OUT OUR NEW CARTRIDGE PRICES FOR THE FOLLOWING PRINTERS: APPLE LASER WRITER PRO 600 OR 16/600 $69 LASER WRITER SELECT 300,310.360 $69 LASER WRITER 300, 320 $54 LASER WRITER LS,NT,2NTX,2F,2G & 2SC $54 LASER WRITER 12/640 $79 HEWLETT PACKARD LASERJET SERIES 2,3 & 3D (95A) $49 LASERJET SERIES 2P AND 3P (75A) $54 LASERJET SERIES 3SI AND 4SI (91A) $75 LASERJET SERIES 4L AND 4P $49 LASERJET SERIES 4, 4M, 5, 5M, 4+ (98A) $59 LASERJET SERIES 4000 HIGH YIELD (27X) $89 LASERJET SERIES 4V $95 LASERJET SERIES 5SI , 8000 $95 LASERJET SERIES 5L AND 6L $49 LASERJET SERIES 5P, 5MP, 6P, 6MP $59 LASERJET SERIES 5000 (29A) $135 LASERJET SERIES 1100 (92A) $49 LASERJET SERIES 2100 (96A) $79 LASERJET SERIES 8100 (82X) $145 HP LASERFAX LASERFAX 500, 700, FX1, $59 LASERFAX 5000, 7000, FX2, $59 LASERFAX FX3 $69 LASERFAX FX4 $79 LEXMARK OPTRA 4019, 4029 HIGH YIELD $135 OPTRA R, 4039, 4049 HIGH YIELD $135 OPTRA S 4059 HIGH YIELD $135 OPTRA E $59 OPTRA N $115 EPSON EPL-7000, 8000 $105 EPL-1000, 1500 $105 CANON LBP-430 $49 LBP-460, 465 $59 LBP-8 II $54 LBP-LX $54 LBP-MX $95 LBP-AX $49 LBP-EX $59 LBP-SX $49 LBP-BX $95 LBP-PX $49 LBP-WX $95 LBP-VX $59 CANON FAX L700 THRU L790 FX1 $59 CANONFAX L5000 L70000 FX2 $59 CANON COPIERS PC 20, 25 ETC.... $89 PC 3, 6RE, 7, 11 (A30) $69 PC 320 THRU 780 (E40) $89 NEC SERIES 2 LASER MODEL 90,95 $105 PLEASE NOTE: 1) ALL OUR CARTRIDGES ARE OEM COMPATABILE. 2) WE DO NOT SEND OUT CATALOGS OR PRICE LISTS 3) WE DO NOT FAX QUOTES OR PRICE LISTS. 5) WE DO NOT CARRY: BROTHER-MINOLTA-KYOSERA-PANASONIC PRODUCTS 6) WE DO NOT CARRY: XEROX-FUJITSU-OKIDATA OR SHARP PRODUCTS 7) WE DO NOT CARRY ANY COLOR PRINTER SUPPLIES 8) WE DO NOT CARRY DESKJET/INKJET OR BUBBLEJET SUPPLIES ****OUR ORDER LINE IS 770-399-0953 **** ****PLACE YOUR ORDER AS FOLLOWS**** : BY PHONE 770-399-0953 BY FAX: 770-698-9700 BY MAIL: STATIC SYSTEMS 5334 LAKE VIEW CLUB ATLANTA GA 30338 MAKE SURE YOU INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN YOUR ORDER: 1) YOUR PHONE NUMBER 2) COMPANY NAME 3) SHIPPING ADDRESS 4) YOUR NAME 5) ITEMS NEEDED WITH QUANTITIES 6) METHOD OF PAYMENT. N0TE: (PRINTER TRADEMARK NAMES ARE USED ABOVE FOR REFERENCE ONLY AND ARE NOT INTENDED TO INFRINGE ON THOSE TRADEMARKS) From ccp-request Sun Sep 10 22:25:37 2000 Received: from unknown (atlnga-as-5-ip-42.atlantic.net [209.208.45.42]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id WAA18698; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:25:30 -0500 From: bench1@techspot.com X-Authentication-Warning: sanpietro.red-bean.com: Host atlnga-as-5-ip-42.atlantic.net [209.208.45.42] claimed to be unknown Subject: your imaging supplies Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:41:23 Message-Id: <799.279340.171005@> To: undisclosed-recipients:; STATIC SYSTEMS 5334 LAKE VIEW CLUB ATLANTA GA 30338 770-399-0953 ***LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGES*** ***FAX AND COPIER TONER*** WE ACCEPT GOVERNMENT, SCHOOL,UNIVERSITY AND LARGE CORPORATE PURCHASE ORDERS. JUST LEAVE YOUR PO # WITH CORRECT BILLING AND SHIPPING ADDRESS. WHY PAY MORE FOR YOUR LASER PRINTER CARTRIDGES? SAVE FROM 20-40% BY PURCHASING FROM STATIC SYSTEMS. ALL CARTRIDGES COME WITH A 90 DAY WARRANTY. WE WILL IMMEDIATELY REPLACE YOUR CARTRIDGE (NO QUESTIONS ASKED) IF IT GOES BAD WITHIN 90 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF PURCHASE. CHECK OUT OUR NEW CARTRIDGE PRICES FOR THE FOLLOWING PRINTERS: APPLE LASER WRITER PRO 600 OR 16/600 $69 LASER WRITER SELECT 300,310.360 $69 LASER WRITER 300, 320 $54 LASER WRITER LS,NT,2NTX,2F,2G & 2SC $54 LASER WRITER 12/640 $79 HEWLETT PACKARD LASERJET SERIES 2,3 & 3D (95A) $49 LASERJET SERIES 2P AND 3P (75A) $54 LASERJET SERIES 3SI AND 4SI (91A) $75 LASERJET SERIES 4L AND 4P $49 LASERJET SERIES 4, 4M, 5, 5M, 4+ (98A) $59 LASERJET SERIES 4000 HIGH YIELD (27X) $89 LASERJET SERIES 4V $95 LASERJET SERIES 5SI , 8000 $95 LASERJET SERIES 5L AND 6L $49 LASERJET SERIES 5P, 5MP, 6P, 6MP $59 LASERJET SERIES 5000 (29A) $135 LASERJET SERIES 1100 (92A) $49 LASERJET SERIES 2100 (96A) $79 LASERJET SERIES 8100 (82X) $145 HP LASERFAX LASERFAX 500, 700, FX1, $59 LASERFAX 5000, 7000, FX2, $59 LASERFAX FX3 $69 LASERFAX FX4 $79 LEXMARK OPTRA 4019, 4029 HIGH YIELD $135 OPTRA R, 4039, 4049 HIGH YIELD $135 OPTRA S 4059 HIGH YIELD $135 OPTRA E $59 OPTRA N $115 EPSON EPL-7000, 8000 $105 EPL-1000, 1500 $105 CANON LBP-430 $49 LBP-460, 465 $59 LBP-8 II $54 LBP-LX $54 LBP-MX $95 LBP-AX $49 LBP-EX $59 LBP-SX $49 LBP-BX $95 LBP-PX $49 LBP-WX $95 LBP-VX $59 CANON FAX L700 THRU L790 FX1 $59 CANONFAX L5000 L70000 FX2 $59 CANON COPIERS PC 20, 25 ETC.... $89 PC 3, 6RE, 7, 11 (A30) $69 PC 320 THRU 780 (E40) $89 NEC SERIES 2 LASER MODEL 90,95 $105 PLEASE NOTE: 1) ALL OUR CARTRIDGES ARE OEM COMPATABILE. 2) WE DO NOT SEND OUT CATALOGS OR PRICE LISTS 3) WE DO NOT FAX QUOTES OR PRICE LISTS. 5) WE DO NOT CARRY: BROTHER-MINOLTA-KYOSERA-PANASONIC PRODUCTS 6) WE DO NOT CARRY: XEROX-FUJITSU-OKIDATA OR SHARP PRODUCTS 7) WE DO NOT CARRY ANY COLOR PRINTER SUPPLIES 8) WE DO NOT CARRY DESKJET/INKJET OR BUBBLEJET SUPPLIES ****OUR ORDER LINE IS 770-399-0953 **** ****PLACE YOUR ORDER AS FOLLOWS**** : BY PHONE 770-399-0953 BY FAX: 770-698-9700 BY MAIL: STATIC SYSTEMS 5334 LAKE VIEW CLUB ATLANTA GA 30338 MAKE SURE YOU INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN YOUR ORDER: 1) YOUR PHONE NUMBER 2) COMPANY NAME 3) SHIPPING ADDRESS 4) YOUR NAME 5) ITEMS NEEDED WITH QUANTITIES 6) METHOD OF PAYMENT. N0TE: (PRINTER TRADEMARK NAMES ARE USED ABOVE FOR REFERENCE ONLY AND ARE NOT INTENDED TO INFRINGE ON THOSE TRADEMARKS) From ccp-request Thu Sep 14 10:40:54 2000 Received: from inkjetfills.com ([63.174.85.42]) by sanpietro.red-bean.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA18257 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:40:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: sanpietro.red-bean.com: Host [63.174.85.42] claimed to be inkjetfills.com Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:50:22 -0500 From: "Irma Garcia" Message-ID: To: ccp@red-bean.com Subject: ALBAAT Inkjet News v.13 - EA-1 / C X-Mailer: eMerge 1.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sanpietro.red-bean.com id KAA18263 When recylcing your cartridges, the cost savings alone is enough to make a commercial user sit up and take notice. A savings of up to 50% can be realized on most cartridges, more on some! ALBAAT has become an expert in the ink jet cartridge remanufacturing industry. We can manufacture over 65 inkjet cartridges with state of the art equipment. ALBAAT guarantee the print quality to be consistent with the quality standards you expect. We offer to Programs: Program 1: Recycle & Reuse Use our Free Ink Jet Recycling Kit postage paid mailers. Refer to price list for cost and cartridge stock number. Texas residents please include 7.25% tax. Simply drop your empty cartridges into the free mailer with your payment and fill out the order form. Drop the envelope in any US Mailbox. That's it! Your cartridges will be professionally remanufactured within 48 hours of receipt and returned to you. Use the mailer for up to 6 cartridges each. You'll save up to 40% of the cost of new cartridges. Program 2: Recycle & Reduce If for any reason you are not interested in using remanufactured cartridgesŠ Please use our Free Ink Jet Recycling Kit, instead of your garbage can for your empty cartridges. Just put all your empties into the Kit, seal it and Drop into the nearest mailbox. ALBAAT will gladly donate $1.00 for each empty received to Brackenridge Children's Hospital, in your name. If you have an organization that needs funds, we will donate to that cause at your request. Please request our flyer regarding "Fundraisers." Be part of the solution to our growing environmental problems. Please call with any questions or to discuss custom tailored recycling programs. You are receiving this email because you are a past or current customer , vendor , or have either inquired about or requested information from this company. If you wish for us to remove you from our customer list, please reply to this message to let us know and we will honor your request to exclude you from further mailings. Sincerely, Irma A. Garcia irmag@inkjetfills.com Ph#512-219-9800 Fx# 512-219-1198 Toll Free: 888-4 ALBAAT http://www.inkjetfills.com/free.html ALBAAT INKJET FILLS 12129 North Highway 620 #540 Austin, Texas 78750