[Lispweb] Mod_lisp 2.0 released

mdanish@andrew.cmu.edu mdanish at andrew.cmu.edu
Mon Jun 18 07:31:37 CDT 2001


On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 11:04:16PM -0500, Andrew K. Wolven wrote:
> So the point that you are trying to make is that your employer had you dinking around
> with inferior java technology in order to support a mostly inferior web server in order
> to support an inferior operating system in order to support yet another mostly inferior
> programmer who calls button-pushing a 'science'.  (All of this having nothing to do with
> lisp or web except to justify a system which could have just used fastcgi or jserve in
> the first place if you must sell buzztalk.)
It's my job.  A customer requested it, I installed it.  I don't see what
your problem is with that.  I am thankful that my employer is decent
enough to let me make my own technical decisions in the areas we have
control over, so I can use Lisp.  I did not expect that when I took this
job.

But back to the point at hand:  If you would simply read the experience
of people who have dealt with similar matters beforehand, instead of
demonstrating your ignorance, you would understand my original point.
This isn't about buzzwords; it's about learning from past mistakes.
I am no fan of buzzword-laden technical-speak either, and BTW I did not
find the original post to be a particularly egregious example of it.

(BTW is an abbreviation for "By The Way", BTW, in Internet-shorthand)

I am well aware that I am working in an Operating System desperately in
need of replacement, that was written in crappy programming languages,
and that people continue to invent fads.  I am also aware of efforts
to alleviate those problems.  In the meantime, a good dose of pragmatism
might do you good.

> 
> Consider this common abbreviation of one of my employers: AIMD,  Aviation Intermediate
> Maintenance Depot.  The only Tomcat technology AIMD bothers to support is F-14 Tomcat.
> In this environment, you may find yourself facing both a court martial and the wrath of
> a widow if money makes you complacent and you cannot do your homework.
What does this have to do with anything?  The matter at hand is mod_lisp
and the Jakarta-Tomcat project from which it is influenced.  Unless this
is going to lead to some kind of relevant point, there is no need to
continue this gratuitous argument.  The main point of it, to me, seems to be:
"I am so cool because I work for someone who works on F-14 Tomcat's, and
this is relevant because the Java servlet implementation is also named
Tomcat."  Childish.

This side matter of abbreviations seems to be a personal pet peeve of yours;
one which I understand, after a fashion, given your particular paranoia
towards buzzwords.
> 
> Of course, that example is way extreme, let us consider a less mission critical
> application environment:  an Online store.  Do you want to rewrite the entire system
> from scratch to make the jump from 100 customers a month to 100,000?  It's up to you, it
> is your time, your money and your carpal tunnel syndrome.
What does this have to do with anything, either?

I'm not the one writing in Java, the clients are, if that's what you
are trying to get at.  And I'm not about to tell them they're wrong either,
not until Lisp-based replacements are ready for heavy scrutiny.  This is
what projects like mod_lisp and IMHO are working on.  I myself use Lisp
for my own projects, but I am willing to invest the resources to overcome
the current implementation and documentation difficulties.



My original purpose was to point out the lessons learned by the Jakarta-
Tomcat programmers when it came to interfacing with Apache versus
running their own web server.  I am not going to play your silly game
any longer; I have wasted enough time as it is.  I suggest that you
read up a little, even if it's not on Lisp (gasp!), so that you can
make reasoned arguments on the evidence I have brought forth.  Otherwise,
the matter is closed as far as I am concerned.


> 
> AKW
> 
> mdanish at andrew.cmu.edu wrote:
> 
> > IIRC stands for If I Recall Correctly, and IIRC, it is a very common internet
> > abbreviation.
> >
> > Jakarta-Tomcat is the reference implementation of "Java Servlets".  I
> > suggest you read about it at http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/index.html
> > and then decide its relevance to the discussion at hand.
> > I had to install it at work one time, but I learned a bit about
> > Apache->"Separate Server Process" interfacing in the process.
> > You might be interested to know that IMHO (A Common LISP web objects
> > framework) used the mod_jserv from Tomcat, at one point in the past.
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:07:05PM -0500, Andrew K. Wolven wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > mdanish at andrew.cmu.edu wrote:
> > >
> > > > IIRC, the reason that Jakarta-Tomcat does not serve it's own pages
> > > > via it's own HTTP server (and it does have one), is because
> > > > 1. The Tomcat HTTP server is slow and an incomplete implementation
> > > > 2. It is not as secure as Apache, and not as well maintained
> > > > 3. It means defining security in two different places:
> > > >    - The apache configuration files
> > > >    - The Tomcat configuration files
> > > >    And Apache is a lot more configurable than the Tomcat HTTP server.
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that a lot of the same issues would apply to mod_lisp
> > > > and whatever backend.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please tell me what IIRC is a clever acronym/abbrev for, and also, if you could,
> > > please tell me what that Jakarta-Tomcat http server is about.  I might be able to
> > > understand what point you are getting at.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:51:31PM -0500, Andrew K. Wolven wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Marc Battyani wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I just released mod_lisp 2.0 here :
> > > > > > http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/mod_lisp
> > > > > > mod_lisp is an Apache module to easily write web applications in Lisp.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It has been completely re-written and now it reuses the Apache <-> Lisp
> > > > > > sockets, boosting performance by a factor of up to 80.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mod_lisp talk from Apache to lisp processes by sockets with a very
> > > > > > straightforward protocol to handle a request. It now reuses the Apache to
> > > > > > Lisp sockets for improved performance. Future versions will probably be more
> > > > > > Lisp specific, but for now it can be used by any other language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why mod_lisp?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -The Lisp servers are application servers. I don't want to bother the Lisp
> > > > > > applications with things like serving gif or jpeg files or even static pages
> > > > > > in some cases. Using mod_lisp I can separate the HTTP servers from the
> > > > > > application servers.
> > > > > > The architecture I am promoting is like this: One or more Apache front ends
> > > > > > to serve static content (like images), one or more Lisp application servers
> > > > > > to process the application logic and databases servers to store the data.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Time is the scarcest resource so I don't want to waste it to implement
> > > > > > things like SSL (though an SSL implementation in Lisp is useful for other
> > > > > > purposes), keeping up to date with HTTP protocols etc. The Apache people do
> > > > > > this with a sufficient quality, I don't see any interest to do it myself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -I can benefit from the Apache modules if I need them (mod_gzip for
> > > > > > instance)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -The market acceptance is quite better. It's really easier to sell an Apache
> > > > > > + FreeBSD + (Postgresql or Oracle) + Lisp solution than a Lisp + FreeBSD +
> > > > > > (Postgresql or Oracle) solution. In the first case Lisp is perceived as yet
> > > > > > another web language like Perl, Python and others. In the second case you
> > > > > > have to advocate the use of Lisp.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -mod_lisp is released under a FreeBSD style license.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -It's easier to work on a project where the Lisp web application is only a
> > > > > > part of a web site.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's in a beta stage. So please report the bugs you can find to me so that I
> > > > > > can include them. (you can also report to me the English mistakes I have
> > > > > > made in the mod_lisp pages...)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Lispweb mailing list
> > > > > > Lispweb at red-bean.com
> > > > > > http://www.red-bean.com/mailman/listinfo/lispweb
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Marc,
> > > > > I really appreciate your work on mod_lisp in that it helps give unix
> > > > > jockeys one
> > > > > less excuse for not using the highest quality standards in software
> > > > > engineering,
> > > > > namely ANSI Common Lisp and relatives.  However, I think that the design
> > > > > reasons
> > > > > that you have described above are full of hot air and that's why you
> > > > > have to add
> > > > > steel cables to keep your balloon from floating off.  You are adding an
> > > > > extra
> > > > > layer of sockets and the protocol to go with it which only forces a lisp
> > > > > hacker
> > > > > to have to waste time learning/administrating Apache/mod_lisp in
> > > > > addition to
> > > > > programming/administrating a lisp [application] server.  (and will
> > > > > probably make
> > > > > the response time of your http request go up by 20% or so on average)  I
> > > > > happen
> > > > > to believe strongly, as well as have evidence based on government work
> > > > > experience, that people that stack engineering on top of buzzwords are
> > > > > doomed.
> > > > > If you must offload your static data to an Apache server for
> > > > > performance/admin/political or other reasons, you don't need a backdoor
> > > > > connection to the server since the browser can connect to the static
> > > > > content
> > > > > server directly.  Simply have your lisp [application] server emit the
> > > > > correct
> > > > > url to the static content.  I seem to remember this debate from a while
> > > > > back and
> > > > > it seemed fresh and dandy then, but now that I have had time to mull
> > > > > over it and
> > > > > run some live sites, I have to say 'wait a minute'.
> > > > >
> > > > > AKW
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Lispweb mailing list
> > > > > Lispweb at red-bean.com
> > > > > http://www.red-bean.com/mailman/listinfo/lispweb
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
> > > > ;; Matthew Danish                         email: mdanish at andrew.cmu.edu ;;
> > > > ;; OpenPGP public key available from:        'finger mrd at db.debian.org' ;;
> > > > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Lispweb mailing list
> > > Lispweb at red-bean.com
> > > http://www.red-bean.com/mailman/listinfo/lispweb
> >
> > --
> > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
> > ;; Matthew Danish                         email: mdanish at andrew.cmu.edu ;;
> > ;; OpenPGP public key available from:        'finger mrd at db.debian.org' ;;
> > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
> 
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> Lispweb at red-bean.com
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-- 
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;; Matthew Danish                         email: mdanish at andrew.cmu.edu ;;
;; OpenPGP public key available from:        'finger mrd at db.debian.org' ;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



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