[Lispweb] Mod_lisp 2.0 released
Andrew K. Wolven
awolven at redfernlane.org
Tue Jun 19 06:54:18 CDT 2001
Sunil Mishra wrote:
> The fact is that you can go on about lisp being better than
> anything out there. Even if that were unconditionally true, most
> people don't care. Especially if they have to get some real work
> done. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you might
> produce something of real value in lisp for the rest of the
> world to use.
I will have to charge you five bucks to retrieve your penny from the toilet
before we can move on with 'real work'.
> Finally, it is not my responsibility to guide the designers of
> mission critical systems (such as spacecrafts and telescopes and
> what not) to an appropriate solution. The designers themselves,
> or those in their organization, have to have better sense and
Do you believe in Santa Clause?
> And putting down the rest of the world is the least
> likely route to getting up to the top.
Which rest of the world am I putting down? Africa? Mexico? India?
> The most I can hope to effectively do is to make local ripples.
> With any luck, mine will find others.
I don't want to hear your philosophy of weakness because I am a Marine.
> Know your enemy. And get your technical skills sharpened.
yes, yes, you win Sunil, my enemy is anger. But which technical skill should
I sharpen first: My ability to hit a bullseye on a b-modified target at 500
meters with the M-16A2 service rifle or my ability to pull weeds which would
choke out the flowers from the garden known as the lisp community? A little
dirt is going to fly either way.
Some say that freedom is not free, but the truth is that freedom is an
illusion: Survival is not free. Save yourself money by knowing your
Maybe you should think about what the phrase 'Federal Reserve' means in
regards to Federal Reserve bank notes.
One way or another Marc is a poser. Either he is a professional flamer (and
genius commedian) employed by NASA for the purpose of defaming unix or he is
pretending that bad design and attempted B.S. is some sort of contribution to
a community of high standards. I am so sorry, but I just want food on the
table and a chance to make a family too, but I am one motherfucker who
believes in honest fruitful work for honest pay. Just because one's employer
may convinced one that a certain behavior is 'honest' work doesn't
automatically make that work honest or of real value.
P.S. Marc, I would suggest to you reading the first several chapters of
Essentials of Programming Languages in detail. You should also get Symbolics
Genera documentation and read that too. If you still don't understand why I
got so angry then perhaps you should look into computer game testing or find
a career outside of computers.
> On Monday, June 18, 2001, at 12:14 AM, Andrew K. Wolven wrote:
> > Sunil Mishra wrote:
> >> Andrew,
> >> There are many, many reasons for which mod_lisp is a good idea.
> >> I don't know if you have ever worked in an environment where you
> >> have a support staff operating all the back end machinery for a
> >> web site. They don't know lisp. Period.
> > I don't work for [computer] people who don't know lisp.
> > Period. I would
> > much rather trim their hedges.
> >> It is not reasonable to
> >> expect them to learn. The lisp way of doing things is alien to
> >> them, they will not understand it, and they are much more likely
> >> to make mistakes. To find someone that *is* able to understand
> >> lisp is going to be far more difficult and far more expensive.
> > It is not my job, role, mission, duty, pleasure, or hobby to
> > support bad
> > programming style. I would suggest for them electroshock
> > treatment so that
> > they could start from scratch with the right learning
> > materials. For the
> > time being I will hire their teenager.
> >> And besides, you would probably want them doing something other
> >> than maintaining your web server.
> >> And web servers do need maintenance. They need someone to go
> >> through the logs, figure out problems, implement needed
> >> functionality, for example an approach to security. You never
> >> want your core application developers to be doing that work.
> > If they can run Apache, they can run CL-HTTP or Allegroserve. If they
> > cannot figure out CL-HTTP on Lispworks on sparc then they
> > should not be an
> > administrator. Between me and my non-lisp using administrator
> > I have set up
> > the server to run as a daemon it dumps logs into a file and/or
> > database and
> > he uses perl/analog to work with the data. He can set up
> > directories for
> > static content. Your non core developers should be able to
> > figure this out
> > too. (He has actually been spending much more time debugging
> > DNS on linux
> > than anything else.)
> >> They can do it, but it would be a waste of their time. Like
> >> asking an electrical engineer to repair a broken socket.
> > I am an electrical engineer and I make it a point to know
> > [personally] how
> > to repair a broken socket.
> >> I love lisp. I think its the best language I have worked with.
> >> But putting down other languages, even if they don't quite
> >> measure up, does not help lisp's cause one bit. If anything, it
> >> alienates other engineers and support people with whom you have
> >> to work. And that kind of antagonism has no place in an
> >> engineering organization that needs to deliver a product.
> > Are you talking about NASA or K-Mart? Which pansey was it who
> > could not say
> > to his boss in 1983 that you cannot launch solid rocket
> > boosters on a cold
> > day?
> >> We had been working on a distributed client/server application
> >> at my last job. The front end was java, and the back end was
> >> lisp. It was java because there has been a lot more work done
> >> with web development with java, and the problems are a little
> >> better understood in that context. It would be easier to hire
> >> people to build that front end. And the front end would have to
> >> be handed over to clients. Doing this work in lisp would be a
> >> non-starter.
> >> The back end was in lisp, of course. Well, part of it was in
> >> lisp. We also had a transactional queue, a persistence manager
> >> (also in java) talking to a database. While lisp is great for
> >> solving hard problems, doing routine things is sometimes far
> >> more difficult. Because the routine things generally don't need
> >> a solution through programming.
> >> IMHO, in the present day you cannot expect lisp alone to form a
> >> complete product. Period. Lisp is better, sure, but going
> >> forward lisp absolutely *must* learn to play with what is.
> >> What mod_lisp gives is very important. It allows lisp developers
> >> to continue programming in lisp. And it allows the company to
> >> hire drones to handle the apache server, or whatever server they
> >> wish to use. It is easier for managers to justify using lisp.
> >> And last but not least, no lisp implementation on unix is
> >> currently multi-threaded.
> > Lisp based schedulers don't count?
> >> So building a truly scalable lisp-only
> >> solution is more or less out of the question. Throwing the http
> >> server into a separate process (apache) will ultimately also
> >> result in a service that scales better.
> >> So before you put down someone else's work, ask, listen, and try
> >> to understand. And if you don't, say so politely.
> > The last half of your comments I agree with mostly except for the last
> > paragraph. It is important to me that you note that I am not slamming
> > Marc's work. I am slamming the fact that he insults the lisp
> > community by
> > perpetrating the idea that marketability through buzzwords
> > implies value. I
> > think that it is sleazy that he would go around telling
> > customers that they
> > should go with apache vs. a native lisp webserver beacause it
> > saves time.
> > This is not service, it is a scam. This bullshit [techno
> > babble of those
> > whold reach into the comode at a resturaunt to retrieve a
> > penny] has invaded
> > the innards of our military industrial complex to the point that it is
> > measurably more physically dangerous for people to protect the
> > very building
> > in which you and your apache guys do business from. These are
> > friends of
> > mine, Sunil, as you and I should be, but they deserve justice.
> > Tell me my
> > friend, do you believe in non-violence? Have you ever been drafted? I
> > haven't, but I sure as hell know what it feels like.
> > This civilization needs ball stompers in the right places
> > otherwise corrupt
> > methodology will cause our human ecosystem to disintegrate
> > under our own
> > weight.
> > If computers are not [one of] the most important technologies for the
> > maintenance of our species than Bill Gates would not be so
> > rich. Do you
> > drive on the freeway, do you use an elevator? Ever been in a
> > jumbo jet? Do
> > you take any medications for serious conditions?
> > AKW
> >> Sunil
> >> On Sunday, June 17, 2001, at 09:04 PM, Andrew K. Wolven wrote:
> >>> So the point that you are trying to make is that your employer
> >>> had you dinking around
> >>> with inferior java technology in order to support a mostly
> >>> inferior web server in order
> >>> to support an inferior operating system in order to support yet
> >>> another mostly inferior
> >>> programmer who calls button-pushing a 'science'. (All of this
> >>> having nothing to do with
> >>> lisp or web except to justify a system which could have just
> >>> used fastcgi or jserve in
> >>> the first place if you must sell buzztalk.)
> >>> Consider this common abbreviation of one of my employers:
> >>> AIMD, Aviation Intermediate
> >>> Maintenance Depot. The only Tomcat technology AIMD bothers to
> >>> support is F-14 Tomcat.
> >>> In this environment, you may find yourself facing both a court
> >>> martial and the wrath of
> >>> a widow if money makes you complacent and you cannot do your
> >>> homework.
> >>> Of course, that example is way extreme, let us consider a less
> >>> mission critical
> >>> application environment: an Online store. Do you want to
> >>> rewrite the entire system
> >>> from scratch to make the jump from 100 customers a month to
> >>> 100,000? It's up to you, it
> >>> is your time, your money and your carpal tunnel syndrome.
> >>> AKW
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